The Biden Presidency 2021

Seriously, had they mixed up the educational promise with some blue collar training, they might have broadened the needed support.

Quote: Mission146

Yeah, but if you're the Democrats and you concede Voter ID, then you can at least advance the position that you have already tried to compromise. Democrats seem to be more opposed to Voter ID than anything, because supposedly, getting an ID is difficult for some people to do. While I submit that it takes more than absolutely zero effort, it's not difficult and I don't buy the argument that it's prohibitively expensive.

Even if it were expensive, then just set up a non-profit that helps the people who allegedly can't afford a non-operator ID get one.

Anyway, I don't say mandatory background checks for guns is a bad idea. I wouldn't consider my stance a strong one, but I'm slightly in favor and also think it should be left to the individual states.

The original Constitutional interpretation of the Second Amendment didn't separate the right to bear arms from a well-regulated militia (in-state) anyway, with some once arguing that is specifically what the Second meant. I'm not sure that I agree with that, but I also don't think that the Second was meant to imply that all weapons for citizens are on the table unconditionally, either.

I think its the historical push that Republicans tend to get upset when large amounts of minorities vote. GA offers free voter ID so I have no problem with it. If a State offers free (Non DL) ID I don't have a huge problem with it, again Federal ID would be better, but that is getting off topic. Again, my main problem is the right pushes for it because they think it will help them (or even the issue will help them). I don't accept its a major problem, so I see no reason to concede voter ID.

As for better background checks for gun sales, I am mixed. Most people who buy guns the right way have no issue passing a background check, and most people who do not will continue to easily buy guns from the endless black market in America, they are right that is will do virtually nothing to stop illegal gun sales. I was just pointing out their inconsistency on the general idea of showing ID for something that will not change society in anyway. (I think forcing ID for lottery tickets would be more beneficial than both issues.....)

Quote: Mission146

Yeah, but it's also a pretty strong argument.

Its the only argument that I have been able to come up with that is valid (not saying I am perfect, and obviously I could be missing stuff), but I have yet to hear anything else to convince me of issues (especially when you can track the results and processing). The only security error is internal abuse (family). But, this is I am sure a tiny amount of the population, and like above the argument in general is so convoluted for one specific goal that I can't take it seriously. Mail in voting is a net positive. (Again a position Republicans used to support heavily when most people who used it were elderly, IE their voters.... but shifted when they perceived it as not helping them....) Its why I have zero desire to "get on board" with them on election security, its all about votes and not about substance.

Quote: Mission146

Impeachment was definitely warranted the second time around; I just saw it as pointless symbolism...but that doesn't mean it's not the sort of thing that a POTUS should be Impeached for. When I was talking about telegraphing Impeaching him and taking any spurious reason they could get, I was referring to the first Impeachment.

Yes, but I was pointing out that the numbers of "most Americans" do not apply to the first impeachment, only to the second. It was a totally different issue with different levels of support.

Quote: Mission146

Personally, I don't find it too alarming as it confirms what I already suspected about the Evangelical Right...basically, that many Christians only pretend to have any standards whatsoever for morality and decorum.

Actually, it kind of stands to reason why they would want to Legislate morality, if you really think about it...without morality being enforced upon them, some of them are simply fundamentally without morals or principles of any kind, except those that they have for others. With that, it stands to reason that so many seem to think that a person without a god would be completely amoral...they can't separate the two.

Well that applies to many (probably all) religions. And, more generally the issue with the belief that "only religious people can be moral", which I view as borderline insane, because you are basically conceding that the only reason you treat people well (or at least pretend to) is because of a perceived eternal reward.

Quote: Mission146

Moot. He wasn't Impeached for that.

Not moot, it led into people not trusting him (validly in my view).

Quote: Mission146

That's correct. There can be a separate ruling that bars an individual from holding further office if they are removed in the first place, but someone can also be removed without a barring from any Federal office. That said, I still maintain that it was pointless symbolism because it was never going to happen anyway. It would be political suicide for Republican Senators, though I think they may have done it if something along the same sort of lines had happened two years prior.

Anyway, I also see your point, but it seems that the second time around just fanned the flames of an already quite healthy fire.

I think everyone knew that he would not be convicted, but I still hold it was not pointless, but I don't think we will agree on this.

Quote: Mission146

Of course he didn't believe it, at least, I don't think he did. I'm simply defending that he was within his legal right to challenge that.

The funny thing about the conspiracy market is the fact that, for people who supposedly question everything, that they are willing to believe anything.

Hypocrisy is never a surprise to me, doesn't matter who or what side is being discussed. I tend to agree that, were his transcript immaculate, he would have been more than happy to release it.


(Some Sections Were Not Quoted)

Again, its my problem with Trump as a person. I would find it hard to think of a more terrible person who is both not in jail and accepted as a mainstream figure.

The college issue is just an aside, normally I could care less, if just he said something like , "Yeah I didn't really care about college I just showed up to check the boxes", it would be a moot point, lots of successful people have bad grades or dropped out, who cares.... But, when he insists that he graduated "top of his class" (which I think even on the right everyone knows is a lie), while denigrating the grades of other people (who almost certainly had better grades than him and actually got admitted based on merit), its foolish. And, then for Obama, even his college transcripts were not enough, he wanted him to release college research papers, because I guess Trump is the ultimate authority on if he was graded properly on assignments..... Its so beyond silly, that it should not even be taken seriously, but virtually every conservative worships him and thought that these documents were worth pursuing..... And, this is one of his less harmful lies...

You can carry over this pattern of lies and hypocrisy to almost any aspect of his life. He has a terrible record in virtually everything, lies says he has the best record in activity X, refuses to release proof, bashes everyone who is probably better at it than him (and usually sues a bunch of people on the way), and says the proof they released is meaningless (while not releasing any himself)....

The point is Trump is a different level of hypocrisy and lies, long before politics even. He only cares about his own growth, my guess is he would be a progressive Democrat if he thought it would get him more votes, but he saw opportunity in the extreme wing of the Republicans (which is now the mainstream Republicans), since it fit his style of insane claims with no evidence. I think he saw opportunity with the Birth Certificate and jumped on it.

This is hilarious. Ron DeSantis says it's the Brandon Administration and the crowd goes wild chanting Let's go Brandon. This thing gets bigger every day.

Quote: Evenbob

This thing gets bigger every day.

Desantis’s waistline?

Job report 530,000 added.

Employment has increased more this year than since 1950.

(One section of quoted post was omitted)

Quote: Gandler

I think its the historical push that Republicans tend to get upset when large amounts of minorities vote. GA offers free voter ID so I have no problem with it. If a State offers free (Non DL) ID I don't have a huge problem with it, again Federal ID would be better, but that is getting off topic. Again, my main problem is the right pushes for it because they think it will help them (or even the issue will help them). I don't accept its a major problem, so I see no reason to concede voter ID.

As for better background checks for gun sales, I am mixed. Most people who buy guns the right way have no issue passing a background check, and most people who do not will continue to easily buy guns from the endless black market in America, they are right that is will do virtually nothing to stop illegal gun sales. I was just pointing out their inconsistency on the general idea of showing ID for something that will not change society in anyway. (I think forcing ID for lottery tickets would be more beneficial than both issues.....)

Umm...I think what you said is really just a matter of rhetoric. What I mean is that Republicans tend to lose when there is a ton of minority turnout...and I'm sure they get upset about losing...but I don't know that they are getting upset because minorities are voting. Were the minorities voting for them, I'm sure they wouldn't have an issue with it...except for Southern White Evangelicals, of course, many of whom would just as soon see minorities not be able to vote at all.

I'm not sure how the lottery works in your state, but many tickets are dispensed from self-service machines now in some states...so I VERY seriously doubt that the state lotteries are going to force ID's to be checked because:

A.) There's no practical way to do that when people are using self-service machines.

AND:

B.) The state knows damn well there's no practical way to do that when people are using self-service machines.

So, fourteen year olds could go into probably many places and get lottery tickets with no problem whatsoever. Cashing them might be a whole other matter, of course, but as with most things related to gambling...they really care more about verifying you when you win as opposed to before you play. That said, if you accidentally sell a 20-year-old a six pack of beer, please enjoy your $1,000 fine.

The one thing that I have to take you to task on here is that you are making, "Practical function," arguments for both mandatory background checks for guns as well as for Voter ID...but you do not like my, "Practical function," position as it pertains to the Second Impeachment and Removal attempt. I guess practical function doesn't necessarily have to rise to the level of being a principle...but in the same post?

On the other hand, I kind of did the same thing as I acknowledged that the Voter ID thing wouldn't be offering a ton in practical function. I guess the practical function would be an olive branch of compromise.

Quote:

Its the only argument that I have been able to come up with that is valid (not saying I am perfect, and obviously I could be missing stuff), but I have yet to hear anything else to convince me of issues (especially when you can track the results and processing). The only security error is internal abuse (family). But, this is I am sure a tiny amount of the population, and like above the argument in general is so convoluted for one specific goal that I can't take it seriously. Mail in voting is a net positive. (Again a position Republicans used to support heavily when most people who used it were elderly, IE their voters.... but shifted when they perceived it as not helping them....) Its why I have zero desire to "get on board" with them on election security, its all about votes and not about substance.

I basically agree with this, but it's not like Republicans are the only ones who support things until they no longer benefit them. However, here's one actual massive (though for a state Senate race) voter fraud scheme that actually happened with absentee ballots:

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/19/us/vote-fraud-ruling-shifts-pennsylvania-senate.html

If you read through that, then you will see that they would have had great difficulty coming up with copies of ID's for those people if they had been required.

Quote:

Well that applies to many (probably all) religions. And, more generally the issue with the belief that "only religious people can be moral", which I view as borderline insane, because you are basically conceding that the only reason you treat people well (or at least pretend to) is because of a perceived eternal reward.

Of course it's borderline insane. Start with that they believe in God, so believing in things with no Empirical proof whatsoever is not a concept foreign to them. Add to that believing strongly in something that they are taught in a way that relies upon a very subjective interpretation of the text (in many cases) as if it is undeniable truth.

Hear, hear, on the last part! You hit it on the head. They're all but admitting that, without God to influence them, they think that they would be terrible people. I'm going to say that's because, especially with Southern White Evangelicals, that a great number of them are either terrible people or easily brainwashed.

Quote:

Not moot, it led into people not trusting him (validly in my view).

They trusted him before that? Where was I when that happened?

Anyway, it's moot vis-a-vis the Impeachment because it is not the job of Congress to decide the Impeachment based on who the public, "Trusts," it's on them to decide if the Articles of Impeachment are:

A.) True.

AND:

B.) Rise to such a level as to warrant an Impeachment, and then, when it gets to the Senate, to decide if it is true and warrants removal.

Quote:

I think everyone knew that he would not be convicted, but I still hold it was not pointless, but I don't think we will agree on this.

We won't. I agree to the extent that such conduct is definitely impeachable and you seem to agree that there was virtually no chance of him being removed or barred from holding further Federal office, so I think that's as close as we will get.

Quote:

Again, its my problem with Trump as a person. I would find it hard to think of a more terrible person who is both not in jail and accepted as a mainstream figure.

The college issue is just an aside, normally I could care less, if just he said something like , "Yeah I didn't really care about college I just showed up to check the boxes", it would be a moot point, lots of successful people have bad grades or dropped out, who cares.... But, when he insists that he graduated "top of his class" (which I think even on the right everyone knows is a lie), while denigrating the grades of other people (who almost certainly had better grades than him and actually got admitted based on merit), its foolish. And, then for Obama, even his college transcripts were not enough, he wanted him to release college research papers, because I guess Trump is the ultimate authority on if he was graded properly on assignments..... Its so beyond silly, that it should not even be taken seriously, but virtually every conservative worships him and thought that these documents were worth pursuing..... And, this is one of his less harmful lies...

You can carry over this pattern of lies and hypocrisy to almost any aspect of his life. He has a terrible record in virtually everything, lies says he has the best record in activity X, refuses to release proof, bashes everyone who is probably better at it than him (and usually sues a bunch of people on the way), and says the proof they released is meaningless (while not releasing any himself)....

The point is Trump is a different level of hypocrisy and lies, long before politics even. He only cares about his own growth, my guess is he would be a progressive Democrat if he thought it would get him more votes, but he saw opportunity in the extreme wing of the Republicans (which is now the mainstream Republicans), since it fit his style of insane claims with no evidence. I think he saw opportunity with the Birth Certificate and jumped on it.

I don't know, Tyra Banks seems like a pretty awful person...

It's like you're saying and like I said before, Donald Trump's biggest strengths are that he's a terrific self-promoter and he's exceptionally great at selling certain types of people on ideas...but even then, he's mostly just selling his brand.

Yeah, he had bandied about the notion of running for POTUS even well before that, but I don't think he saw a realistic path to victory at that time. With the somewhat disliked Hillary Clinton as the heir apparent to Obama (this was pretty telegraphed, or at least, always reasonably likely), Trump had to start by carving himself out a baseline niche. He's not going to get that on the Left just by virtue of who he is, so go after the Far Right, virtue signal to racists, appeal to conspiracy nuts, people who distrust the Government and media and then use the word, "Bible," in a sentence once or twice to get Evangelicals on board.

He might have won reelection if he hadn't continued to take it so far even after winning the first time. However, you have to be honest and say that he played 2014-2016 pretty perfectly in terms of the only possible path he had to the Presidency. It wouldn't have happened as a third-party candidate, either, as that would have just assured Democratic victory for a third consecutive POTUS term.

Quote: rxwine

Job report 530,000 added.

Employment has increased more this year than since 1950.

I don’t expect any of the righties to acknowledge this (or the positive revisions to the last couple of months’ numbers).

Quote: Mission146

I don't know, Tyra Banks seems like a pretty awful person...

Quote: ams288

Desantis’s waistline?

It didn’t hurt Trump in 2016. My wife may hate Desantis more than Trump. I wonder if he would be able to successfully compete with say, Harris, in the swing states? I think some of his coronavirus stuff has been over the top loony, but I also agree with his ‘we gotta get back to normal’ policies.

Quote: rxwine

Job report 530,000 added.

Employment has increased more this year than since 1950.

Seriously, this is news? Like there is a single person who didn’t expect this once all the government imposed shutdowns ended? Are you next going to show me a statistic showing movie theater attendance is up 100,000% from last year?