Why aren't battery power vehicles cheaper?

Quote: JCW09

So true, you can efficiently charge your EV at anyone of the convenient wall sockets that exist in your life today.
Why didn't I think of that?

In the US from the standard wall socket you will get roughly 3 miles of range (+/- a mile) from a standard wall socket. In the UK with the higher voltage you can get an average of 8 miles of range. Driving distances are much shorter on average in the UK, and they have fewer private vehicles.

United States:838 vehicles per 1000 people (2018)
United Kingdom: 471 vehicles per 1000 people (2017)

Total number of vehicles registered in the UK are 38.6 million, of which 31.8 million were cars. California has 15 million vehicles registered.

UK is going to prohibit new car sales that are not zero emissions after 2030 and no registrations after 2040 according to order signed by prime minister. California is going to prohibit registrations of anything other than zero emissions after 2035 according to executive order signed by the governor.

Self charging hybrids are not zero emissions, they often get 50 miles to the gallon however.

I predict the public revolts against these zero emission dates for this and that and that these dates get pushed

there's only so many carbon credits that can be found, it is foolishness to think that EVs are going to get us there by that alone

Quote: odiousgambit

I predict the public revolts against these zero emission dates for this and that and that these dates get pushed

there's only so many carbon credits that can be found, it is foolishness to think that EVs are going to get us there by that alone

Transportation is 29% of carbon emissions. A little over 1/2 of that is vehicles from cars to big rigs. If we could electrify all of them and find enough new green electricity to charge them all, that would get you 1/3 of the way to Biden's emission target. It is impossible to meet the target anywhere close to the time promised. Maybe unlimited trillions of American dollars spent on the scam of carbon credits could get you there on paper but would not actually reduce carbon.

Quote: odiousgambit

I predict the public revolts against these zero emission dates for this and that and that these dates get pushed

Many people say that. These executive orders are only signed to get political points, but they can't be enforced.

Toyota, as one of the most popular brands in the US, still has not built a production model of an Electrical Vehicle. They sell small numbers of plug in hybrids.

But there big push is not for zero emissions vehicles, it is using the power train they developed for the Prius. This greatly reduces emissions, but doesn't take them to zero. Right now 25% of Toyota sales is for this type of hybrid.

The price increase from pure ICE engines is anywhere from 2% to 18%. Fully 80% of units sold do not have the hybrid option.
17.9% COROLLA | compact car
8.9% CAMRY |midsize car
8.6% RAV4 |Corolla frame
10.4% HIGHLANDER |Camry frame
2.7% AVALON luxury car

Most luxury cars are sold in Toyota's Lexus brand, but as their are still half a dozen states without Lexus dealerships, they have retained the Avalon under the Toyota brand. It sells very few units.

100 % of in-state California sales of new passenger cars and trucks will be zero-emission by 2035.
Presumably by then all of these brands will have a ZEV by 2035, but I wonder how the ranks will change?

Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks sold in 2019 California
359,696 Toyota
277,030 Honda
190,424 GM
174,598 Fiat Chrysler
155,981 Ford
122,345 Volkswagen
116,636 Nissan
80,859 Subaru Corporation
78,400 BMW
76,993 Mercedes Benz
69,334 Kia
66,125 Hyundai
41,043 Mazda
18,600 Jaguar Land Rover
13,327 Volvo
1,841,391 Total

Quote:

In the Nevada desert, there’s a quiet frenzy building over a rare resource that will be crucial to meeting the country’s goals to slow down climate change.
Lithium, the crucial component in batteries for electric vehicles and renewable energy storage, has mostly been produced in countries like Australia, Chile and China.
There’s only one commercial lithium mine operating in the U.S., a facility in Silver Peak, Nevada, that has been using ponds to evaporate groundwater and harvest lithium since the 1960s. At least two more mines are waiting for final approval to begin construction, one of which would produce enough lithium for 400,000 electric vehicles a year for the next 50 years, according to the company.
MORE: Why 2021 is shaping up to be a pivotal year for electric vehicles

But demand is set to explode as much as 1000% by 2030, according to the Energy Information Administration, and possibly even more if more countries continue to adopt policies to encourage the adoption of electric vehicles and renewable energy. And with President Joe Biden's push to manufacture more electric vehicle components in the United States, the focus has turned to how and where the country can collect rare minerals like lithium responsibly.

Toyota is the #1 brand in California by a fairly large margin over Ford. They are developing a line of low emission hybrid vehicles based on the Prius that still use internal combustion engines. They do have the ability to turn off the engine while idling which is possibly the biggest problem in large cities.

By the year 2025, Toyota should have a hybrid version for all vehicles. In addition they currently have two plug in hybrid vehicles that all further elimination of tailpipe emissions.

--------- Toyota hybrid cars
56 mpg 2021 Toyota Prius Eco 1.8 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (variable gear ratios) 633 miles range
53 mpg 2021 Toyota Corolla Hybrid 1.8 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (variable gear ratios) 593 miles
53 mpg 2021 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 686 miles
43 mpg 2021 Toyota Avalon Hybrid 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 568 miles

--------- Toyota hybrid CSUV and minivan
40 mpg 2021 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid AWD 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 580 miles |Towing capacity 1,750 lbs
38 mpg 2021 Toyota Venza AWD 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 566 miles | not rated for towing
34 mpg 2021 Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 590 miles |Towing capacity 3,500 lbs
34 mpg 2021 Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD 2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6) 630 miles |Towing capacity 3,500 lbs

--------- Toyota sells hybrid in other countries, but not at present in California
29 mpg 2021 Toyota C-HR 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S7) 383 miles

--------- Toyota does not have hybrid for these much larger engines
18 mpg 2021 Toyota Tacoma 4WD DCAB MT TRD 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S6) 380 miles |Towing capacity 3,500 lbs and up
17 mpg 2021 Toyota 4Runner 2WD 4.0 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S5) 391 miles |Towing capacity 5,000 lbs
14 mpg 2021 Toyota Tundra 4WD pick up 5.7 L, 8 cyl, Automatic (S6) 532 miles |Towing capacity 8,800 to 10,200 lbs
14 mpg 2021 Toyota Sequoia 4WD 5.7 L, 8 cyl, Automatic (S6) 370 miles |Towing capacity 7,000 to 7,400 lbs
14 mpg X2021 Toyota Land Cruiser Wagon 4WD 5.7 L, 8 cyl, Automatic (S8) 344 miles | Towing capacity 8,100 lbs

Even the 34 mpg for the Sienna minivan and Highlander SUV are pretty good if you consider it is a 4400 lb to 4700 lb vehicles with All Wheel Drive.

Toyota intends to supplement the above lineup with plug in hybrids, battery electric vehicles, and fuel cell vehicles for their customers who can afford the higher prices.

In theory, Toyota could sell only hybrids in California. Although that may lose them a percentage of customers, it would still be easier than revamping their entire lineup in a decade.

Only hybrids are going to be an issue for people who want to two a lot.

Alas this program will be insufficient to meet the ZEV goals of California government.

Which of these EV vehicles using carbon based electricity for charging will Ed be able to use to pull his 5th Wheel?

Quote: AZDuffman

Because they think the power comes out of the wall socket.

You guys keep intentionally fixating on this point.

Zero emissions refers to emissions from the vehicle. Its about clean air in urban areas. Its about breathing air that is not pumped full of carbon monoxide.

Carbon Monoxide is extremely dangerous. Many people do not realize how many people die from running their car in an enclosed environment (such as you garage with the door closed). This is even more of a problem now with automatic starts (or starts from a button press) and your car can be running for hours without you knowing. (I am not talking about suicides where people do this intentionally).

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2019/06/14/park-it-act-keyless-car-carbon-monoxide/1419233001/

Yes this is the extreme, but the everyday danger is the constant exposure to toxins from emissions that we have no choice to not breath in. We are losing the right to clean air by not invoking emission controls.

Everyone knows where power comes from and the emissions from the plants (this will change with time). This is not some gotcha like you think. Its about keeping the emissions away from population zones.

Its the same reason more cities around the world are zoning areas zero or low emissions. We know where power comes from, its about local health and safety.

You can think of a zero emission zone as a non-smoking area and an emission zone as a smoking area. For example at a casino I can choose to go to the smoking zone, but I know that I will be exposed to environmental toxins, however, I have the choice between smoking or non-smoking. This is the goal for emission zones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-emission_zone

https://www.santamonica.gov/press/2021/02/25/laci-launches-first-in-nation-zero-emissions-delivery-zone-with-city-of-santa-monica-and-partners-including-nissan-ikea

Quote: Gandler

You guys keep intentionally fixating on this point.

Zero emissions refers to emissions from the vehicle. Its about clean air in urban areas. Its about breathing air that is not pumped full of carbon monoxide.

Yes, we keep fixating on it. Because the very next sentence you make our point.