Why aren't battery power vehicles cheaper?

Its easy to focus on the seen problems. Everyone is an environmentalist when it comes to storm water, when local lakes and rivers get filled with sediment people lose their minds (as they should). Sewage is similar. Most people tend to care most (often exclusively) about what directly effects them.

Carbon Monoxide is the unseen killer. The people that are getting hostile over this, are the same types that fifty years ago would mock people who say cigarettes smoke is harmful (which also contains carbon monoxide).... Health trends that upset social convention tend to be unpopular, until they become the norm and the opposite is true (look at the history of smoking controls, at first people who wanted smoking banned were mocked, told they were overreacting, etc..... Now if you smoke anywhere even outside around people you will be the one who gets dirty looks. I predict that this will be the case with emissions in vehicles, probably at a faster rate than the smoking issue).

To make a parallel for both issues, CA had the first smoking ban in the U.S. (on any kind of wide scale), people mocked CA for such strict measures, now it is the norm across North America (with some States as exceptions). A similar thing is happening with emissions, they appear to want to lead the charge with local air quality. CA and NJ both tend to be states that are ahead of the curve on regulation. Also, it only takes a couple States to change the country. For example CA has the power to single handedly change industries by outlawing products (if certain vehicles cannot be sold or stored in CA they will not be profitable to produce), take in account the group of States that will quickly follow its lead (that all are highly populated States), and it only becomes necessary to restrict sales in a few States to make the demand for a product plummet. For example for a while CA was the only State that required warnings on certain tobacco products (such as Cigars, I know this from old Cigar boxes from my Father), and the warnings would carry over to other States saying something along the lines "This product contains things that the State of California has declared harmful and cause etc....", of course this is a moot point now, but this was before Cigars were required nationally to have warning labels, because if there was a chance a product could end up in CA, it was better to be safe and meet the requirements and labels. This happens with other products, such if you read the waning labels on certain furniture you will see things like "The State of CA has declared this material to be an increased fire risk" (again paraphrasing, but its something like that). The point is it only takes a few (or even one) important States to change regulations and warnings for products nation-wide.

Quote: Gandler

To make a parallel for both issues, CA had the first smoking ban in the U.S. (on any kind of wide scale), people mocked CA for such strict measures, now it is the norm across North America (with some States as exceptions). A similar thing is happening with emissions, they appear to want to lead the charge with local air quality.

California Air Resources Board (CARB) adopted the first Low-Emission Vehicle (LEV) regulations in 1990, requiring automobile manufacturers to introduce progressively cleaner light- and medium-duty vehicles with more durable emission controls from the 1994 through 2003 model years. By adopting these regulations, CARB established the most stringent criteria pollutant exhaust regulations ever for light- and medium-duty vehicles.

Toyota responded with a 1.8 L, 4 cyl hybrid engine hich was installed in the Prius to provide excellent mileage, They have since put the same engine in the Corolla (which has been around since 1966). A slightly larger 2.5 L, 4 cylinder hybrid engine was developed about five years ago and has since been installed in six models. As each model gets heavier the fuel economy goes down, but is still radically better than a pure Internal Combustion Engine.

1.8 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (variable gear ratios)
56 mpg 2021 Toyota Prius Eco 633 miles
53 mpg 2021 Toyota Corolla Hybrid 593 miles

2.5 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV S6)
53 mpg 2021 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE 686 miles
43 mpg 2021 Toyota Avalon Hybrid 568 miles
40 mpg 2021 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid AWD 580 miles
38 mpg 2021 Toyota Venza AWD 566 miles
34 mpg 2021 Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD 590 miles
34 mpg 2021 Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD 630 miles

Toyota has a limited 2 model plug in hybrid for the Prius (25 miles) $28K and the Rav4 (42 miles) $38K on pure electricity before the gasoline powered engine takes over. Since the average mileage for an American car is 41 miles per day (15,000 miles per year), the Rav4 will not require gasoline on an average day. The Prius plug-in can probably use an ordinary 15 Amp or 20 Amp plug, but the Rav 4 plug-in requires a special plug more like one you use for your dryer to recharge in a reasonable amount of time.

Toyota has stated that in 2022-2025 they intend to develop hybrids or plug-in hybrids for their 3.5 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S6), 4.0 L, 6 cyl, Automatic (S5), and 5.7 L, 8 cyl, Automatic (S6) engines as well.

So Toyota, as the large brand in California has made impressive gains for the LEV program and is on track to sell half a million of these vehicles. But so far they have only a single vehicle for ZEV program, the expensive Mirai. A Mirai costs $50K which is a lot to pay for a car that Toyota estimates can do 0 to 60 mph in 9.2 secconds. While for the same $50K you can get a Tesla Model Y long range which can do 0 to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds.


It really is a question of how much is enough. Toyota's hybrids cost an extra $1000 to $37000 and will dramatically improve air quality if they are matched by all brands in California. They don't disrupt the entire culture of people who can't afford to pay $40K for a vehicle.

Quote: Gandler

Its about clean air in urban areas.

Much that was about cleaner air in problem areas has been transformed in the public mind to less use of fossil fuels, this would be true with the public and the media even if all electric power was created using coal.

A good example is ethanol too. Great for less air pollution in cities. Almost mindlessly stupid as a way to use less fossil fuel.

Quote: odiousgambit

A good example is ethanol too. Great for less air pollution in cities. Almost mindlessly stupid as a way to use less fossil fuel.

That would be true if the corn grew wild and hunter gathers picked it. Big agriculture uses a ton of carbon to plant, fertilize, harvest the crop.

Quote: kenarman

That would be true if the corn grew wild and hunter gathers picked it. Big agriculture uses a ton of carbon to plant, fertilize, harvest the crop.

I suppose, but you do have to burn something to distill the alcohol . From what I know about distilling, it's a multiple stage process to get to high percentages of alcohol, which surely is needed.

Corn does remove CO2 from the air as it grows, without that the insanity would truly be off the charts maybe.

Quote: odiousgambit

I suppose, but you do have to burn something to distill the alcohol . From what I know about distilling, it's a multiple stage process to get to high percentages of alcohol, which surely is needed.

Corn does remove CO2 from the air as it grows, without that the insanity would truly be off the charts maybe.

Corn is really not the best to use to make ethanol. Bush43 started some research to use other plants.

Quote: AZDuffman

Corn is really not the best to use to make ethanol. Bush43 started some research to use other plants.

It's a terrible use of corn, at one point there was concern about the impact on poor people in Mexico ... it really should be grown for food only if, as I suspect, the effect on cleaner air from vehicle emissions is marginal

A car (electric vehicle) that could be cheaper than a golf cart with federal and state incentives


Seven models of internal combusion engine (ICE) subcompacts were discontinued in 2019-2020
Ford Fiesta (2019), Nissan Micra (2019), Smart Fortwo (2019), Fiat 500 (2019), Toyota Yaris (2020), Honda Fit (2020), and Chevrolet Sonic (2020).

Remaining ICE subcompacts are Chevrolet Spark, Hyundai Accent , Kia Rio, the Mitsubishi Mirage, the Nissan Versa, and the Mini.

Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio are built on same platform as Kia is one third owned by Hyundai.

The Chevrolet Spark is the only subcompact left that sells in reasonably high quantities.

Volkswagon's new model is getting more popular
2021 Volkswagen ID.4 Compact sport utility vehicle MSRP: From $39,995
Range: 250 to 260 mi battery-only Dimensions: 181″ L x 73″ W x 64″ H
Curb weight: 4,559 to 4,665 lbs Horsepower: 201 to 302 hp

Subaru has announced the name of their new EV, "Solterra", but we don't know much about it except it will be built in close cooperation with Toyota.

The following recommendations are from Tesla's own site. Don't take the battery below 15% or charge higher than 85% because it is hard on the battery and reduces its life. Use fast charge sparingly as it reduces battery life. Warranty won't kick in until the capacity of the battery drops below 75%. Battery capacity will be less when the battery is cold.

Lets assume the battery drops to 90% capacity after a few years. If an owner was to follow the recommended 15% to 85% charging range you are left with 85% - 15% = 60% capacity.

Real life battery capacity is now .6 X .9 = .54 if it is cold then we lose more so lets go with 50%.

If you are running either the A/C or the heat you will lose at least 30% more. Now we have .5 X .7 = 35% capacity real life capacity so the range will drop by the same percentage.

Electric vehicles are still not ready for a major commute or regular city to city driving.