The Smoking Thread

Quote: Evenbob

I have lost count the number of people I know who directly or indirectly died from cigarette smoking. Most of them were not lung cancer victims. Cigarette smoking also weakens the hell out of your heart muscle, it causes you to have a very weak heart in your 50s. I love it when people who think they are oh so smart also smoke cigarettes. Which is just about the stupidest thing you can do. When really smart people do really stupid things, how smart are they really.

Many of your posts seem contrarian as a default. I would not be surprised if you smoke two packs a day. JK

Quote: Gandler

Well, it's official the FDA is banning menthol cigarettes (with the one exception being menthol e-cigarette or vapes), and more alarmingly (at least to me) all flavored cigars. This is totally absurd, flavored cigars banned? Why?

If they ban flavored smokeless tobacco (which luckily is not on any agenda, at least yet), I may be furious at the overreach.

If I quit, the Fascists win. If I don't quit, the Fascists win. It's a pretty serious Catch-22.

I should have voted for Trump, although, he won the state that I'd have voted for him in anyway. Oh well. The Fascist D***s Administration has just guaranteed that I never vote for another Democrat, for anything, as long as I live. That's a good job by them, because I'm usually fairly open-minded when it comes to individual candidates.

1.) You know, the Federal tax on cigarettes is basically $1.01/pack, so if you look at a pack a day smoker who smokes for forty years:

$1.01 * 40 * 365.25 = $14,756.10 in taxes during that time.

That's not to mention the various state taxes on tobacco, as well as the fact that tobacco is also subject to state sales tax.

In Pennsylvania, for example, the tax is $2.60/pack, so---

$2.60 * 40 * 365.25 = $37,986 in taxes during that forty years.

Double taxation takes place with cigarettes!!! Sales tax is applied to the price AFTER all of the other taxes have already been applied. Pennsylvania's sales tax is 6%, and I think it's fair to call $9 about average in the state for a pack of smokes, so---

9 * .06 * 40 * 365.25 = $7,889.4

Notwithstanding anything else, such as the fact that the income from the tobacco companies, farmers, etc. etc. is taxed...we have:

14756.1 + 37986 + 7889.4 = $60,631.5

Which is the total in taxes that will be paid by this smoker over forty years, at least, for this example. Of course, that also ignores any applicable local taxes as well as taxes that are levied on the manufacturers/companies directly.

In other words, it is my contention that the costs of a smoker's treatment in the event that they become ill are largely offset by these taxes. Quite frankly, some smokers are almost certainly an economic boon, overall.

2.) On average, non-smokers live for ten more years than smokers.

That being the case, and assuming that a safe percentage of smokers are lower-income, that means that MediCare and Medicaid is actually going to take a bath on a bunch of people quitting. The average cost, annually, per person, is about $11,600 for Medicare and Medicaid recipients.

Perhaps worse than that is the fact that such average includes children and many others who are generally healthy. Therefore, we're often not talking about nursing home care or end-of-life care...a year of those things costing substantially more than the average.

What you end up with is people who are going to live longer and require more medical care, and when they do become deathly sick, they'll have bodies built to pointlessly survive for a longer amount of time than the smokers who, in many cases, would be dead almost immediately.

In other words, it is my contention that many people quitting smoking will actually cost the Government MORE MONEY and that money is not going to be offset by the various taxes that are paid only by cigarette smokers---or the taxes paid by everyone that the smokers also pay.

3.) If the Federal Government had nothing to do with healthcare to begin with, which it shouldn't, then the Government would not even be able to operate under the guise of caring about health.

4.) I can't believe they've managed to do something that makes me feel bad for some people in The South. This is unforgivable.

Conclusion

The Fascists win. I bought a pack of Mores yesterday, so I'm going to finish how I started. Less money for the Federal and State Governments, that's for sure, but if they don't want my money, then they won't get it.

I'm also probably a Libertarian-minded Republican now. This is it. I want the Democrats to do nothing but lose. Look at what they'll do!

They're no better than the Christians. Maybe worse? It's no matter. I'll never vote for a Democrat again and, as far as individual issues of law are concerned, I'm going to automatically vote against whatever side of the issue that the Democrats seem to like.

Quote: Mission146

If I quit, the Fascists win. If I don't quit, the Fascists win. It's a pretty serious Catch-22.

I should have voted for Trump, although, he won the state that I'd have voted for him in anyway. Oh well. The Fascist D***s Administration has just guaranteed that I never vote for another Democrat, for anything, as long as I live. That's a good job by them, because I'm usually fairly open-minded when it comes to individual candidates.

1.) You know, the Federal tax on cigarettes is basically $1.01/pack, so if you look at a pack a day smoker who smokes for forty years:

$1.01 * 40 * 365.25 = $14,756.10 in taxes during that time.

That's not to mention the various state taxes on tobacco, as well as the fact that tobacco is also subject to state sales tax.

In Pennsylvania, for example, the tax is $2.60/pack, so---

$2.60 * 40 * 365.25 = $37,986 in taxes during that forty years.

Double taxation takes place with cigarettes!!! Sales tax is applied to the price AFTER all of the other taxes have already been applied. Pennsylvania's sales tax is 6%, and I think it's fair to call $9 about average in the state for a pack of smokes, so---

9 * .06 * 40 * 365.25 = $7,889.4

Notwithstanding anything else, such as the fact that the income from the tobacco companies, farmers, etc. etc. is taxed...we have:

14756.1 + 37986 + 7889.4 = $60,631.5

Which is the total in taxes that will be paid by this smoker over forty years, at least, for this example. Of course, that also ignores any applicable local taxes as well as taxes that are levied on the manufacturers/companies directly.

In other words, it is my contention that the costs of a smoker's treatment in the event that they become ill are largely offset by these taxes. Quite frankly, some smokers are almost certainly an economic boon, overall.

2.) On average, non-smokers live for ten more years than smokers.

That being the case, and assuming that a safe percentage of smokers are lower-income, that means that MediCare and Medicaid is actually going to take a bath on a bunch of people quitting. The average cost, annually, per person, is about $11,600 for Medicare and Medicaid recipients.

Perhaps worse than that is the fact that such average includes children and many others who are generally healthy. Therefore, we're often not talking about nursing home care or end-of-life care...a year of those things costing substantially more than the average.

What you end up with is people who are going to live longer and require more medical care, and when they do become deathly sick, they'll have bodies built to pointlessly survive for a longer amount of time than the smokers who, in many cases, would be dead almost immediately.

In other words, it is my contention that many people quitting smoking will actually cost the Government MORE MONEY and that money is not going to be offset by the various taxes that are paid only by cigarette smokers---or the taxes paid by everyone that the smokers also pay.

3.) If the Federal Government had nothing to do with healthcare to begin with, which it shouldn't, then the Government would not even be able to operate under the guise of caring about health.

4.) I can't believe they've managed to do something that makes me feel bad for some people in The South. This is unforgivable.

Conclusion

The Fascists win. I bought a pack of Mores yesterday, so I'm going to finish how I started. Less money for the Federal and State Governments, that's for sure, but if they don't want my money, then they won't get it.

I'm also probably a Libertarian-minded Republican now. This is it. I want the Democrats to do nothing but lose. Look at what they'll do!

They're no better than the Christians. Maybe worse? It's no matter. I'll never vote for a Democrat again and, as far as individual issues of law are concerned, I'm going to automatically vote against whatever side of the issue that the Democrats seem to like.

I don't want to get too into the politics, but Trump was pushing for far more tobacco control than Biden (his last proposed budget was to form a new agency with full power to review and regulate tobacco products), this of course did not come to pass and FDA remains the regulator for tobacco. Trump was pretty anti-tobacco. Really the last President that was pro-tobacco (or at least pro not regulating it) was Bush.

The Federal Tax of about 1 dollar is actually pretty reasonable (compared to most developed countries). Most States that have crazy high prices are due to state and local taxes.

I am surprised PA has such high cigarette taxes. In GA I think its about 30 cents a pack (many brands are under 4 dollars, discount brands close to 2).

I do know PA is the only State with zero tax on smokeless tobacco, that was the place to go to stock up on dip, you can get many for less than a dollar.

Quote: Gandler

I don't want to get too into the politics, but Trump was pushing for far more tobacco control than Biden (his last proposed budget was to form a new agency with full power to review and regulate tobacco products), this of course did not come to pass and FDA remains the regulator for tobacco. Trump was pretty anti-tobacco. Really the last President that was pro-tobacco (or at least pro not regulating it) was Bush.

The Federal Tax of about 1 dollar is actually pretty reasonable (compared to most developed countries). Most States that have crazy high prices are due to state and local taxes.

I am surprised PA has such high cigarette taxes. In GA I think its about 30 cents a pack (many brands are under 4 dollars, discount brands close to 2).

I do know PA is the only State with zero tax on smokeless tobacco, that was the place to go to stock up on dip, you can get many for less than a dollar.

Dude, they banned menthols. How much more tobacco control do you want than banning a cigarette flavor that has been around since 1924? I don't care what Trump was, this is Biden's FDA, so that's who did it.

It doesn't even matter if this goes through at the end of the day; the fact that it has even reached this level demonstrates, incontrovertibly, to me, that the Democrats are Fascists.

That's fine. I'm persuasive. I'll oppose the Democrats on every possible issue and encourage those around me to do the same. I think I'll work on swinging some African-American votes after this goes into full effect; I imagine they'll be in a position to be persuaded after your party gets done taking something that many of them certainly seem to like away.

I don't know about the smokeless situation as I do not use that and have no plans to replace the nicotine intake with anything else. Probably more caffeine, but that's about it.

Quote: Mission146

Dude, they banned menthols. How much more tobacco control do you want than banning a cigarette flavor that has been around since 1924? I don't care what Trump was, this is Biden's FDA, so that's who did it.

It doesn't even matter if this goes through at the end of the day; the fact that it has even reached this level demonstrates, incontrovertibly, to me, that the Democrats are Fascists.

That's fine. I'm persuasive. I'll oppose the Democrats on every possible issue and encourage those around me to do the same. I think I'll work on swinging some African-American votes after this goes into full effect; I imagine they'll be in a position to be persuaded after your party gets done taking something that many of them certainly seem to like away.

I don't know about the smokeless situation as I do not use that and have no plans to replace the nicotine intake with anything else. Probably more caffeine, but that's about it.

It did not start under Biden (though yes he seems to support it, but I guarantee Trump would as well if he won).

It was a health petition filed several years, and the petioner received a court order that the FDA had to make their decision by COB yesterday (they were trying to delay taking a stance). I guarantee the decision would be the same if Trump was still in office.... This is not something that even started under Biden....

Quote: Gandler

It did not start under Biden (though yes he seems to support it, but I guarantee Trump would as well if he won).

It was a health petition filed several years, and the petioner received a court order that the FDA had to make their decision by COB yesterday (they were trying to delay taking a stance). I guarantee the decision would be the same if Trump was still in office.... This is not something that even started under Biden....

I'm not buying what you're selling. No way to know that the decision would have been the same. Either way, it would just make Trump also a racist and a fascist, which I already knew.

Biden could have appointed an acting FDA whatever that would have said no, therefore, I blame Biden. He's the one who did it. No taking that away. Because I blame Biden, I blame the Democrats who put him there. Because I blame the Democrats who put them there, and same Democrats fit into some relatively broad categories, I can vote against every side of any issue that I think they would like.

Quote: Evenbob

I have lost count the number of people I know who directly or indirectly died from cigarette smoking. Most of them were not lung cancer victims. Cigarette smoking also weakens the hell out of your heart muscle, it causes you to have a very weak heart in your 50s. I love it when people who think they are oh so smart also smoke cigarettes. Which is just about the stupidest thing you can do. When really smart people do really stupid things, how smart are they really.

Or, maybe the really smart people have no desire to live past 60.

Quote: DRich

Or, maybe the really smart people have no desire to live past 60.

Oh, nice! I should have thought of that.

Quote: Mission146

I'm not buying what you're selling. No way to know that the decision would have been the same. Either way, it would just make Trump also a racist and a fascist, which I already knew.

Biden could have appointed an acting FDA whatever that would have said no, therefore, I blame Biden. He's the one who did it. No taking that away. Because I blame Biden, I blame the Democrats who put him there. Because I blame the Democrats who put them there, and same Democrats fit into some relatively broad categories, I can vote against every side of any issue that I think they would like.

Well that is fine, you can look at the history of the petion as easily as me.

I am just pointing out that historically smoking laws change at various time periods, and there seems to be very little influence of political party. In recent history, Trump was very anti-tobacco, if he was in power I have zero doubt that he would also praise the menthol ban, is this hypothetical, yes it is, but we can make assumptions based on his past actions and statements on tobacco.

Honestly if your primary issue is tobacco, you should want a President who is from a rural state where tobacco is a top crop, they tend to me the most pro-tobacco regardless of party.....

Quote: Gandler

Well that is fine, you can look at the history of the petion as easily as me.

I am just pointing out that historically smoking laws change at various time periods, and there seems to be very little influence of political party. In recent history, Trump was very anti-tobacco, if he was in power I have zero doubt that he would also praise the menthol ban, is this hypothetical, yes it is, but we can make assumptions based on his past actions and statements on tobacco.

Honestly if your primary issue is tobacco, you should want a President who is from a rural state where tobacco is a top crop, they tend to me the most pro-tobacco regardless of party.....

Or, a Libertarian President who just wouldn't pass any laws against smoking, regardless of where from.