Israel under Siege

Quote: SOOPOO

I ask what would be the US response if Mexico started sending THOUSANDS of missiles into Texas? Would we politely ask them to stop? Or would we use our superior military force to take out whatever targets we see as possible sources as the bombs? It is interesting that Hamas now is using missiles to attack, as opposed to a while ago when they would send their young adults and children onto buses with vests laden with bombs. Israel has negotiated agreements with non terrorist countries like Egypt, but what can you do with a terror organization running a country? Basically what they are doing, responding to force with force. Fortunately, Israel has both better offensive and defensive capabilities.

This is not a difficult decision. Supporting Israel is perhaps the one issue Biden and Trump agree on.

Well, we have seen this exact situation (in history). When Mexico attacked the United States we took what is (mostly) modern Texas formally (its more complicated and involves Texas being its own country at one point), and long story short it ended up with the U.S. having more territory and Mexico having less. But, it is a crucial example to bring up, because when countries attack countries that are more powerful they often lose territory and then play the victim. Mexico does not complain about this or demand that we give up a portion of Texas how ever many years later, nor do they use this as an excuse to attack the border.

This is what happened when the surrounding countries all invaded Israel. If they agreed to the original agreement, it would be split 80/20 (with Jewish people only have 20%), but now that they acted aggressively and lost far more territory they are playing the victim card. Once a country invades another they lose the right to have a say in how the land is managed if they lose it, and they lose all rights to complain about it. Once Israel was attacked by all of its neighbors in the 1940s after inception it was granted a broad license to do what it needs to do to protect its territory for the foreseeable future.

Its the same concept on a more personal level with self defense. If I have a CCW license and somebody tries to rob me with a knife, is it wrong to pull my firearm on them? And, if they charge me with a knife after displaying my firearm, is it wrong to fire on them? Even if they only have a knife and I have a gun? Of course not, a power imbalance in a conflict does not give the side with less power/ability an automatic increase in moral virtue.
The aggressor is still the aggressor, and aggression gives broad license for somebody to defend themselves and broad protections against future judgment.

Hamas fired on Israel. Israel has the right to shoot out Hamas rockets from the sky and to take out reasonably suspected Hamas rocket sites (and support sites). The fact that anyone is siding with Hamas is mind boggling.

Quote: petroglyph

I quoted a published story with a link to it. Never have I defended Hamas.

As far as believing there are huge NG reserves in the Levant basin, I stand by that belief. I also think that Gaza probably has as much rights to the resources offshore from their territory as anyone else does.

You continually berate them for living off of Israels largesse, but how are they ever going to get off the dole if they can't harvest anything within reasonable distance of where they have lived for a very long time?

Israel pulled out of Gaza 100% (which was probably a bad move) in 2007. Whatever resources are in Gaza Israel has zero control over. I am confident that Israel attacking rocket sites in Gaza has nothing to do with natural gas or oil. If Israel has known and/or cared about this for so long why would they pull out in 2007? Also, why is Hamas spending so much time tunneling for terroristic purposes and building rockets instead of extracting resources?


From your article:

https://www.exposingtruth.com/gaza-oil-gas-real-reason-behind-war

"Earlier in 2007, a year before Operation Cast Lead, Ya’alon’s showed interest in the 1.4 – 1.6 trillion cubic feet of natural gas discovered in 2000 off the Gaza coast, worth about $4 billion. He indicated that the Israeli cabinet is not just concerned about Hamas – but concerned about the possibility of Palestinians developing their own gas resources!"

So this was discovered in 2000 and discussed in 2007, and yet later in 2007 Israel still pulled out. If they were that obsessed for this 4 billion USD of oil, this seems a bit silly? Gaza is as free as can be, any resources there that are not being used are purely the issue of those in power (Hamas)......

Quote: SOOPOO

I ask what would be the US response if Mexico started sending THOUSANDS of missiles into Texas? Would we politely ask them to stop? Or would we use our superior military force to take out whatever targets we see as possible sources as the bombs? It is interesting that Hamas now is using missiles to attack, as opposed to a while ago when they would send their young adults and children onto buses with vests laden with bombs. Israel has negotiated agreements with non terrorist countries like Egypt, but what can you do with a terror organization running a country? Basically what they are doing, responding to force with force. Fortunately, Israel has both better offensive and defensive capabilities.

Israel can flatten Gaza to a parking lot, make it look like those pics of Japan after WWII with nothing standing for all I care. The Palestinians keep making the same bed over and over and over.

Quote: SOOPOO

I ask what would be the US response if Mexico started sending THOUSANDS of missiles into Texas? Would we politely ask them to stop? Or would we use our superior military force to take out whatever targets we see as possible sources as the bombs? It is interesting that Hamas now is using missiles to attack, as opposed to a while ago when they would send their young adults and children onto buses with vests laden with bombs. Israel has negotiated agreements with non terrorist countries like Egypt, but what can you do with a terror organization running a country? Basically what they are doing, responding to force with force. Fortunately, Israel has both better offensive and defensive capabilities.

This is not a difficult decision. Supporting Israel is perhaps the one issue Biden and Trump agree on.

Hell with that. We might have went a little over the top, but we got the general military response right with Nagasaki and Hiroshima. If Mexico were to attack us, then you just indiscriminately drop a bomb or two right in the middle of Mexico City.

You hope it doesn't come to that, but if the enemy strikes you first, the most efficient response is complete and indiscriminate annihilation until the enemy unconditionally surrenders.

Quote: Mission146

Hell with that. We might have went a little over the top, but we got the general military response right with Nagasaki and Hiroshima. If Mexico were to attack us, then you just indiscriminately drop a bomb or two right in the middle of Mexico City.

You hope it doesn't come to that, but if the enemy strikes you first, the most efficient response is complete and indiscriminate annihilation until the enemy unconditionally surrenders.

That is a bad analogy, because in both cases there was no issue with bombing civilians. Israel is going out if its way to avoid civilian deaths (while Hamas makes it very challenging by setting up rockets in dense areas). During WWII such bombings were justified. But, during a border skirmish that would be over the top.

Israel has very powerful weapons, if their goal was to wipe out Gaza it would be over in a matter of hours (that is not their goal despite what some would have you believe).

Quote: AZDuffman

The Palestinians keep making the same bed over and over and over.

Not so much when Trump was President.

Iranian backed Hamas has been replenishing their weapons stockpile in Palestine since the end of the Gaza war in 2014. Had they launched an attack like this during the Trump administration, he would have imposed additional sanctions against Iran. Under the Trump sanctions, Iranian oil production fell from 4.5 to 2.3 million barrels a day, and they were flat broke. Exports were less than 200,000 barrels a day. Following the traitor John Kelly’s advice, they waited out Trump. Their patience paid off, when Biden gave them access to billions in cash, and removed any incentive for them to resume nuclear discussions. Today Iran’s daily oil production is 2.8 million barrels a day, on its way to 4.5 million. They’re selling it at a 50% higher price than in December, and the rockets are one again flying by the thousands on the verge of a full-scale war.

Quote: Gandler

That is a bad analogy, because in both cases there was no issue with bombing civilians. Israel is going out if its way to avoid civilian deaths (while Hamas makes it very challenging by setting up rockets in dense areas). During WWII such bombings were justified. But, during a border skirmish that would be over the top.

Israel has very powerful weapons, if their goal was to wipe out Gaza it would be over in a matter of hours (that is not their goal despite what some would have you believe).

I didn't come up with the analogy. If Israel has the capacity to wipe them off the map, then they should just do it and end the war.

Quote: Mission146

I didn't come up with the analogy. If Israel has the capacity to wipe them off the map, then they should just do it and end the war.

You can't just destroy millions of innocent people to win a war.

And, yes I know you are going to go back to WWII bombings, but that was a much different conflict where there was no choice.

Quote: Gandler

You can't just destroy millions of innocent people to win a war.

Why not?

Quote: Mission146

Why not?

Because it is not a reasonable use of force.

If it was required to win a conflict in a way that would save lives in the long run, it would be a reasonable use of force (such as WWII), but mass bombings would not do anything positive in this conflict. The reasonable thing to do is targeted take outs of people firing at you, and even just doing that they are getting vilified.

Its a lose-lose situation for Israel because even the most minimalistic response causes outrage and condemnation..... But, it is crucial for Israel to keep the moral high ground.