Maternity/Paternity Leave

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November 4th, 2021 at 7:01:48 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: gamerfreak
Which is entirely possible without abandoning your family completely.

Is paternity leave still silly if the woman earns more than the man?


In theory, no, but as a practical matter, they usually wouldn't be working for the same company, so it's not as though she could pass her maternity leave to him and it become paternity leave.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
November 4th, 2021 at 7:05:13 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: rxwine
While plenty of parents stick older kids (toddlers) in day care, sticking a newborn baby, probably breast milk baby, in an environment where it's probably going to be ignored too much of the time is atrocious. Supposedly you can get permanent effects on the brain development with neglect. An infant probably perceives 5 minutes like an hour of boredom. Of course they sleep a lot. But sometimes they don't seem to sleep at all.


It seems that we are forgetting that having kids in the first place is a choice. It's not as if the new parents were forced to have a kid, especially given that abortion is generally legal.

Similarly, going the daycare route or the stay-at-home route is also a choice.

Hopefully, the advancements in technology as relates working from home (one of the few positives to come as a result of Covid-19) will render the question moot for a great many people.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
November 4th, 2021 at 7:12:14 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
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Quote: Mission146
It seems that we are forgetting that having kids in the first place is a choice. It's not as if the new parents were forced to have a kid, especially given that abortion is generally legal.


True, but I'd probably argue that the more lack of early care is going to leave the rest of society with more adults with behavior problems that we all have to deal with. But yeah, good family planning is not a sin.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
November 4th, 2021 at 7:29:20 AM permalink
gamerfreak
Member since: Feb 19, 2018
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Quote: Mission146
I want to say my ex-wife and kids preferred the house we lived in at the time compared to public housing, but they never lived in public housing, so I could be wrong.

Sorry, I should elaborate more because that’s not what I meant at all.

When Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Steve Crowder, etc say that paternity leave is for pussies, aren’t coming from a place where the choice is either work or public housing. It is the fetishization of hard work over family. Certainly you have met one of these types who completely puts work before anything else.

I know a guy who was a very successful CTO of a large company you have heard of. 12-14 hour days were typical and he loved every second of it.

One day while he was at work, the depressed neighbor got drunk and shot himself on their front lawn in front of this guy’s wife and kids. He could not be bothered to leave work and console his family. “Nothing I can do” he said.

THAT is the type of attitude that says paternity leave is for pussies. It is 100% an excuse to abandon fatherly responsibilities.
November 4th, 2021 at 7:39:40 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: rxwine
True, but I'd probably argue that the more lack of early care is going to leave the rest of society with more adults with behavior problems that we all have to deal with. But yeah, good family planning is not a sin.


I think the tough thing is finding a balance when you're trying to look at multiple, "Ideally's."

1.) Ideally, newborns would be with at least one of the parents until they are ready for preschool or Kindergarten, whichever the case.

2.) Ideally, women could choose both a professional life and having plenty of time for these young children.

3.) Ideally, parents would never have to resort to daycare centers as there would be a family structure in place such that the small children could always be with a family member.

4.) Ideally, for companies that do offer maternity leave, hiring women of child-bearing age whose life circumstances make them more likely to do so wouldn't be seen as a liability for the company. Again, it's not politically correct, but any money that a company has to pay out in exchange for zero labor is going to be seen as a potential liability. Companies also aren't always thrilled with people who use every available paid sick day, either.

So...what you are left with is a bunch of things that usually cannot happen all at once, or sometimes, at all.

I don't pretend to know what other people are going through when it comes to childcare (when I was a kid, we went to my Great-Grandma's, and in the rare event (when my ex and I were still married) that the kids needed a babysitter, they could go to her mom's or my mom's.) What I do know is far from being able to provide a perfectly ideal situation for every single person, I don't think there should be a Governmental responsibility to take care of every single individual's problems. While I favor policies that will help them out a bit, at least on state/local levels, I don't see why the Government should be accountable to handle the series of choices that led an individual to that individual's position.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
November 4th, 2021 at 7:43:03 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
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Quote: gamerfreak
It is the fetishization of hard work over family.


And that is why the Western world is heading to hell in a hand basket. Hard work is now a fetish. As my young co-workers have told me on the job "I am not really into the work thing."
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
November 4th, 2021 at 7:51:45 AM permalink
gamerfreak
Member since: Feb 19, 2018
Threads: 4
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Quote: kenarman
And that is why the Western world is heading to hell in a hand basket. Hard work is now a fetish. As my young co-workers have told me on the job "I am not really into the work thing."

There is more to life than work.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to work 12 hour days and never take a day off. However if they want to live like that, they shouldn’t have kids.
November 4th, 2021 at 7:55:15 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: gamerfreak
Sorry, I should elaborate more because that’s not what I meant at all.

When Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Steve Crowder, etc say that paternity leave is for pussies, aren’t coming from a place where the choice is either work or public housing. It is the fetishization of hard work over family. Certainly you have met one of these types who completely puts work before anything else.

I know a guy who was a very successful CTO of a large company you have heard of. 12-14 hour days were typical and he loved every second of it.

One day while he was at work, the depressed neighbor got drunk and shot himself on their front lawn in front of this guy’s wife and kids. He could not be bothered to leave work and console his family. “Nothing I can do” he said.

THAT is the type of attitude that says paternity leave is for pussies. It is 100% an excuse to abandon fatherly responsibilities.


No need for an apology, but I accept the apology all the same.

I've been accused of being one of those types, but my situation was living in an area where (while I didn't make a lot of money), I couldn't just snap my fingers and replace my job with one that would have demanded fewer hours. I mostly managed a hotel during the last several years I was married and probably worked an average of 70 hours per week.

I also wasn't ridiculously underpaid (by the standards of the area), or anything, and effectively made just north of $10/hour if you ignore the fact that the last 30+ hours of the week would have been $15+/hour had it been an hourly position, but it was salary. My only, "Benefit," was that I theoretically had five paid vacation days per year that I almost never got to actually take.

Still, it was a stable income and stable job where I was basically not fireable.

The issue there with my ex-wife was the fact that she did not want us to move to a different area, but at the same time, expected that I should be able to click my fingers and have a forty hour per week job making the same amount of money. That's when I tried the Distribution Center which paid MUCH more on the hour, unfortunately, they flatly lied about the average number of hours you would actually get per week. Leading up to and shortly after the divorce, I worked full-time at both...but was really just holding out for the raise from the hotel that shouldn't even have been a question.

During that, I would get to listen every day about how I was basically ignoring the family...which is her perspective and wouldn't have been a problem....except I would then also be accused of working so many hours per week for a dude who I hated because I didn't want to be at home. It was also pointed out to me, several times, that we could both just have normal full-time jobs...but if she ever actually applied for one, she sure didn't tell me about it. I told her, "By all means, feel free to go out and start applying for something, but you obviously have to have a job before I can quit this one."

Anyway, she enrolled in college and does well as a nurse now, so that's fantastic and I'm happy for her. After she'd been in college for a year, (I was still at the hotel) it came to my attention from a family member of hers that she was planning on divorcing me after she got out of college, so I said, "Let's just do it now." So, we did that, I moved out and paid all of the bills on the house for her and the kids as well as paid child support.

From her perspective, perhaps I was ignoring the family...but until she enrolled in college, I never saw her even attempt to get a full-time job. From my perspective, I was wasting my life at a job I hate 70+ hours per week and married to someone who was far more interested in b%^$ing at me about everything rather that trying to actually do something about it...only to find out (when she finally did enroll in college) that the goal was only to ride the marriage out until she had a job and then divorce me.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
November 4th, 2021 at 7:56:30 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: Mission146
I think the tough thing is finding a balance when you're trying to look at multiple, "Ideally's."

1.) Ideally, newborns would be with at least one of the parents until they are ready for preschool or Kindergarten, whichever the case.

2.) Ideally, women could choose both a professional life and having plenty of time for these young children.

3.) Ideally, parents would never have to resort to daycare centers as there would be a family structure in place such that the small children could always be with a family member.

4.) Ideally, for companies that do offer maternity leave, hiring women of child-bearing age whose life circumstances make them more likely to do so wouldn't be seen as a liability for the company. Again, it's not politically correct, but any money that a company has to pay out in exchange for zero labor is going to be seen as a potential liability. Companies also aren't always thrilled with people who use every available paid sick day, either.

So...what you are left with is a bunch of things that usually cannot happen all at once, or sometimes, at all.

I don't pretend to know what other people are going through when it comes to childcare (when I was a kid, we went to my Great-Grandma's, and in the rare event (when my ex and I were still married) that the kids needed a babysitter, they could go to her mom's or my mom's.) What I do know is far from being able to provide a perfectly ideal situation for every single person, I don't think there should be a Governmental responsibility to take care of every single individual's problems. While I favor policies that will help them out a bit, at least on state/local levels, I don't see why the Government should be accountable to handle the series of choices that led an individual to that individual's position.


Believe it or not, my argument about early care for parents was made to appeal to completely selfish non-parents of the rest of the world. (below is not even talking about abusive physical type of neglect) The children become adults and live with the rest of us.

Quote:
neglect disrupts the ways in which children’s brains develop and process information, thereby increasing the risk for attentional, emotional, cognitive, and behavioral disorders


Quote:
is associated with significant risk for emotional and interpersonal difficulties, including high levels of negativity, poor impulse control, and personality disorders, as well as low levels of enthusiasm, confidence, and assertiveness.
is associated with significant risk for learning difficulties and poor school achievement, including deficits in executive function and attention regulation, low IQ scores, poor reading skills, and low rates of high school graduation.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
November 4th, 2021 at 8:01:34 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: gamerfreak
There is more to life than work.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to work 12 hour days and never take a day off. However they want to live like that, they shouldn’t have kids.


But you are advocating that an 8 or 7.5 hr day is too strenuous for someone with a family. Okay you say the 12 hr a day person shouldn't have kids. But why should the person who wants to spend additional time with their kids expect the government to pay them to do that? Now the 12hr day person can't have kids but also needs to pay you to stay home with yours. Live the life you want but don't expect someone else to pay for it.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
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