Pondering the Historical Jesus

The Wizard just did a Livestream Ask Anything and did a trivia quiz about the Biblical account of the Nativity. I was certainly rusty on that and didn't remember about Simeon and Anna in the second chapter of Luke... I have read all of the 4 gospels in my day but probably upon finishing the chapter with these two in it, instantly forgot who they were should someone have asked. 

When Jesus was twelve, we learn that he was celebrated by important Temple elders in Jerusalem, but these gentlemen are anonymous in that story. When 'presented' as a baby, though, it's Simeon and Anna who make a fuss about him in that city. It's significant to me that Luke names them. Luke, it should be noted, was written later than Matthew or Mark; the latter is the oldest and contains no nativity story. Matthew covers much of it, but not this presentation of the infant Jesus in Jerusalem. I think with Luke's story we get to see a reflection of the growth of Church doctrine in response to the need to convince the Jews, who would have been looking for validation of prophecy. I won't be able to cite it for you, but I have to believe this 'presentation' was prophesied. 

I'm no scholar myself as you can see, but have been interested in the historical Jesus. I'm aware that there are many scholars who are pretty sure Jesus was working in concert with a group of people that his family and regular followers knew little about. These people are revealed in the gospels in a sort of random way, since naturally they had some contact. Nicodemus* in particular, a wealthy man and a member of the Sanhedrin, was a contact known to them with this other group [according to this thinking]. Jesus was known as a Healer and had quite a bit of fame, attracting large crowds. Perhaps he was contacted by this group, which may have been Zealots looking to oppose Rome, or to instead oppose Jewish collaborators with the Romans. I admit I am on shaky ground from here on as to this theory. 

I am just saying I am a little more keyed in on seeing people being named like Simeon and Anna are. Though they would not seem to still be alive at the time of the later events, Luke's church may have been honoring some faction by making their ancestors part of the story. In any case, if Jesus was keeping this group largely secret from his regular family and followers, it really explains how confounded they were by events as they unfolded. They tried to explain it as best they could, and founded a religion. As an example, Jesus taught them to not resist the Romans, turn the other cheek, pay the taxes, etc. Perhaps he only intended to control them until the time was ready, but as it turns out, it became a tenant of Christianity. 


* Nicodemus
He first visits Jesus one night to discuss Jesus' teachings (John 3:1–21).
The second time Nicodemus is mentioned, he reminds his colleagues in the Sanhedrin that the law requires that a person be heard before being judged (John 7:50–51).
Finally, Nicodemus appears after the Crucifixion of Jesus to provide the customary embalming spices, and assists Joseph of Arimathea in preparing the body of Jesus for burial (John 19:39–42).
the above from wikipedia; this last bit is very interesting

I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]

I'm interested in his DNA.

Thanks for listening to the show.

I'm no biblical scholar either. It's no big secret that it was put together some 50 years after the events of Jesus and there was debate and disagreement about what should be put in it. It would not surprise me if some details were changed, added, or left out to satisfy the powers that be.

One of my favorite bits of bible trivia is how many fish were caught in the story of Jesus and the miraculous catch of fish, from John chapter 21.

Quote: John 21:10-11

Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.

It makes me wonder why they counted the fish and this detail was remembered and put in the gospel many years later. I would not be surprised if a mathematician at the time just liked the number, because 153 = 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3. Maybe he pulled some strings to have it included somewhere in the gospel, as a joke.

There is also a theory about Shakespeare secretly planting his name in the King James Bible. I'll expand on that upon request.

yeah I remember the Shakespeare thing too, but would have to find it too

The ministry of the historical Jesus was that he traveled from town to town preaching the Doomsday message. Repent, the end is near, God is coming, get ready. You are royally screwed if you do not repent. Him and his little band of followers, who were mostly teenage boys by the way, and not the old men with long beards in the painting The Last Supper. They went from town to town preaching this stuff and got room and board for it. He was a healer but there were lots of feelers then. He was crucified because he pissed off the Jews in charge and he was a major pain in their butt so they got rid of him. There were lots of these doomsday preachers in those days because everybody was superstitious and it was easy to convince people that they lived in the end times. Jesus was absolutely convinced if he was living in the end times, this is an inarguable fact. And the whole Christmas Story of Jesus being born in a manger in Bethlehem is a bunch of made-up bunk. It never happened. There was no manger, there was no inn, there was no Magi. There was not even traveling to Bethlehem. All this stuff was added later as the urban legend Jesus grew and grew. And as with all urban legends there's very little truth in any of it.

Quote: Evenbob

The ministry of the historical Jesus was that he traveled from town to town preaching the Doomsday message. Repent, the end is near, God is coming, get ready. You are royally screwed if you do not repent. Him and his little band of followers, who were mostly teenage boys by the way, and not the old men with long beards in the painting The Last Supper. They went from town to town preaching this stuff and got room and board for it. He was a healer but there were lots of feelers then. He was crucified because he pissed off the Jews in charge and he was a major pain in their butt so they got rid of him. There were lots of these doomsday preachers in those days because everybody was superstitious and it was easy to convince people that they lived in the end times. Jesus was absolutely convinced if he was living in the end times, this is an inarguable fact. And the whole Christmas Story of Jesus being born in a manger in Bethlehem is a bunch of made-up bunk. It never happened. There was no manger, there was no inn, there was no Magi. There was not even traveling to Bethlehem. All this stuff was added later as the urban legend Jesus grew and grew. And as with all urban legends there's very little truth in any of it.

well at least you aren't claiming he didn't exist, Bob

as far as the Nativity story, it seems to have grown out of the early church needing to validate prophecy. Jesus couldn't be who they claimed unless he was a descendant of David ... actually I think there was quite a bit of explaining to do besides that

Now, Bob, you will appreciate this irony: Jesus is said to have no earthly father as well. So to be a descendant of David makes no sense, except, it seems that it had to be or no dice. So the early church kind of stumbled into this I think.

But...

It turned out to be a big success to have this story about a child of modest means, but a messiah ... popular even today of course. Kudos to the marketing department LOL

Now, to me, this look at the historical Jesus is interesting and can't be done if we just sit back and dismiss it as a bunch of made-up bunk and stop there

Quote: odiousgambit

Now, Bob, you will appreciate this irony: Jesus is said to have no earthly father as well. So to be a descendant of David makes no sense, except, it seems that it had to be or no dice.

You're right, I never thought of that. I wish FRG was here to hear his opinion on this. The Nativity Story in Bethlehem was invented out of thin air to give Jesus validity because he had none. He was just another traveling preacher who made a pain in the ass out himself so the Jewish hierarchy got rid of him. The religion was actually invented by Paul and Christians should actually be called Pauline's.

Quote: odiousgambit

The Wizard just did a Livestream Ask Anything and did a trivia quiz about the Biblical account of the Nativity. I was certainly rusty on that and didn't remember about Simeon and Anna in the second chapter of Luke... I have read all of the 4 gospels in my day but probably upon finishing the chapter with these two in it, instantly forgot who they were should someone have asked. 

When Jesus was twelve, we learn that he was celebrated by important Temple elders in Jerusalem, but these gentlemen are anonymous in that story. When 'presented' as a baby, though, it's Simeon and Anna who make a fuss about him in that city. It's significant to me that Luke names them. Luke, it should be noted, was written later than Matthew or Mark; the latter is the oldest and contains no nativity story. Matthew covers much of it, but not this presentation of the infant Jesus in Jerusalem. I think with Luke's story we get to see a reflection of the growth of Church doctrine in response to the need to convince the Jews, who would have been looking for validation of prophecy. I won't be able to cite it for you, but I have to believe this 'presentation' was prophesied. 

I'm no scholar myself as you can see, but have been interested in the historical Jesus. I'm aware that there are many scholars who are pretty sure Jesus was working in concert with a group of people that his family and regular followers knew little about. These people are revealed in the gospels in a sort of random way, since naturally they had some contact. Nicodemus* in particular, a wealthy man and a member of the Sanhedrin, was a contact known to them with this other group [according to this thinking]. Jesus was known as a Healer and had quite a bit of fame, attracting large crowds. Perhaps he was contacted by this group, which may have been Zealots looking to oppose Rome, or to instead oppose Jewish collaborators with the Romans. I admit I am on shaky ground from here on as to this theory. 

I am just saying I am a little more keyed in on seeing people being named as Simeon and Anna are. Though they would not seem to still be alive at the time of the later events, Luke's church may have been honoring some faction by making their ancestors part of the story. In any case, if Jesus was keeping this group largely secret from his regular family and followers, it really explains how confounded they were by events as they unfolded. They tried to explain it as best they could, and founded a religion. As an example, Jesus taught them to not resist the Romans, turn the other cheek, pay the taxes, etc. Perhaps he only intended to control them until the time was ready, but as it turns out, it became a tenant of Christianity. 


* Nicodemus
He first visits Jesus one night to discuss Jesus' teachings (John 3:1–21).
The second time Nicodemus is mentioned, he reminds his colleagues in the Sanhedrin that the law requires that a person be heard before being judged (John 7:50–51).
Finally, Nicodemus appears after the Crucifixion of Jesus to provide the customary embalming spices, and assists Joseph of Arimathea in preparing the body of Jesus for burial (John 19:39–42).
the above from wikipedia; this last bit is very interesting

One of the ways to remove some doubt about Jesus historically existing, is the exponential growth of the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ represents Christians that have permanently received access to the Holy Spirit.

These numbers can be estimated.

The Body of Christ began with One member, Jesus, as He is the Head.

Then around Jesus' resurrection, there were around 15 more members.

The 12 Apostles, Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and possibly Joseph of Arimathea, etc.

Then the group eventually had about 100 Disciples.

So that is about a 500 percent increase in a short time.

Many were physically killed, but the growth continued on an exponential trajectory.

That explains the calendar being changed.

If there are two billion Christians now, and 1/3 are Body of Christ members, then that would be about 650,000,000 Body of Christ members currently physically alive over roughly 2,000 years.

Just in the last 50 years, there were all time records of Body of Christ members becoming physically deceased.

Quote: DoubleGold

One of the ways to remove some doubt about Jesus historically existing, is the exponential growth of the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ represents Christians that have permanently received access to the Holy Spirit.

These numbers can be estimated.

The Body of Christ began with One member, Jesus, as He is the Head.

Then around Jesus' resurrection, there were around 15 more members.

The 12 Apostles, Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and possibly Joseph of Arimathea, etc.

Then the group eventually had about 100 Disciples.

So that is about a 500 percent increase in a short time.

Many were physically killed, but the growth continued on an exponential trajectory.

That explains the calendar being changed.

If there are two billion Christians now, and 1/3 are Body of Christ members, then that would be about 650,000,000 Body of Christ members currently physically alive over roughly 2,000 years.

Just in the last 50 years, there were all time records of Body of Christ members becoming physically deceased.

you are failing to distinguish between the two-thirds of the 2 Billion that are Christians of a different class from the third that are 'Body of Christ'. I'm guessing you consider yourself part of the one-third, but in any case you might enlighten us.

Also explain about exponential death rate and a calendar change, if you don't mind. Kind of sounds like the change was made just in time, or all Christians would now be dead!

odiousgambit, yes, I am a Body of Christ member.

There are self-labeled Christians that have yet to perform the actions required to permanently receive the Holy Spirit.

We don't know how to determine that number, so I am only estimating it.

But it could explain so many different Christian denominations (40,000?) and so many Christians acting obviously inappropriately (radicals?).

However, it's possible a Body of Christ member could act inappropriately (sinner) since we're all human.


The exponential growth includes the life of Body of Christ members.

But I had no recent number available to determine deceased Body of Christ members.

So I backed out the number representing the currently living Christians and estimated from there.

The actual percentage could be higher or lower, but I used 1/3.


So to chart the exponential growth, one could begin with the initial growth rate and continue to draw an exponential curve to the recent estimate over 2000 years.

There could be some troughs in the chart representing millions of Christians being killed, but it should continue upward on the same trajectory.