The Amy Schneider thread

Quote: rxwine

Actually, I don't see why persons with the same approximate muscle mass and approx weight can't compete against each other regardless of sex.

Other differences that have been pointed out are lung capacity, heart size, bone mass. Ability isn't always proportional to size. It's more complicated. Some of the best men cyclists don't weigh much more than 120 Lb, but a woman of the same size wouldn't have a chance against them.

Quote: JimRockford

Other differences that have been pointed out are lung capacity, heart size, bone mass. Ability isn't always proportional to size. It's more complicated. Some of the best men cyclists don't weigh much more than 120 Lb, but a woman of the same size wouldn't have a chance against them.

But that doesn't take into account muscle mass. A man and a women should compete with the same muscle mass. I'm guessing a man of the same weight has more muscle mass because men of the same size would. Men outnumber women 2-1. Another factor in the sport.

What I'm also curious about is women's vs. men's records historically. If I'm guessing right women's bicylig records are improving over the years at a higher rate than men's are, which means they aren't at the peak as athletes.

I'm not sure what this implies, except possibly to show how long it can take to have a big improvement in sport

Longest Standing World Records – Athletics

Florence Griffith Joyner – 100m – 31 Years.
Galina Chistyakova – Long Jump – 31 Years. ...
Randy Barnes – Shot Putt – 29 Years. ...
Mike Powell – Long Jump – 28 Years. ...
Javier Sotomayor – High Jump – 26 Years. ...
Jonathan Edwards – Triple Jump – 24 Years. ..

Quote: rxwine

I'm not sure what this implies, except possibly to show how long it can take to have a big improvement in sport

Longest Standing World Records – Athletics

Florence Griffith Joyner – 100m – 31 Years.
Galina Chistyakova – Long Jump – 31 Years. ...
Randy Barnes – Shot Putt – 29 Years. ...
Mike Powell – Long Jump – 28 Years. ...
Javier Sotomayor – High Jump – 26 Years. ...
Jonathan Edwards – Triple Jump – 24 Years. ..

It doesn't really imply much of anything beyond that. It's very rare that you will see some huge breakthrough record in any sport; most records get improved by a very small amount at a time and, as you can see, can sometimes stand for decades before being nudged negligibly.

If you compare men and women in similar events in most sports, there can be no question that the gap isn't closed yet. You might be right that there is a non-zero impact of women not participating in sports for as long, but women have been in some Olympic events since 1900, Track and Field since 1928 and many records aren't close.

In some cases, such as discus throw, you would think the women's records are better than the men...but it's the same sport with different rules as they throw a lighter discus. Despite men throwing a 2 KG discus and women throwing a discus of half of that weight, only the #1 and #2 women's records beat the men's record and the #3 women's record ties it.

Anything where both sexes play under the same rules, the world records aren't generally particularly close in anything. Maybe you're right that women will develop to being as physically capable in all of these different sports as men, and I would say, let's talk about what to do when that happens. If you pair women with men in most sports now, especially individual sports, it'll be a bloodbath.

Quote: Mission146

It doesn't really imply much of anything beyond that. It's very rare that you will see some huge breakthrough record in any sport; most records get improved by a very small amount at a time and, as you can see, can sometimes stand for decades before being nudged negligibly.

If you compare men and women in similar events in most sports, there can be no question that the gap isn't closed yet. You might be right that there is a non-zero impact of women not participating in sports for as long, but women have been in some Olympic events since 1900, Track and Field since 1928 and many records aren't close.

In some cases, such as discus throw, you would think the women's records are better than the men...but it's the same sport with different rules as they throw a lighter discus. Despite men throwing a 2 KG discus and women throwing a discus of half of that weight, only the #1 and #2 women's records beat the men's record and the #3 women's record ties it.

Anything where both sexes play under the same rules, the world records aren't generally particularly close in anything. Maybe you're right that women will develop to being as physically capable in all of these different sports as men, and I would say, let's talk about what to do when that happens. If you pair women with men in most sports now, especially individual sports, it'll be a bloodbath.

I thought of another possible solution. Science doesn't say despite what people think that gender is the same as gender identification. Just as sexual preference isn't based on gender either. The brain and hormones are the strongest determinant of gender or sexual preference. If it wasn't, people would just look in the mirror to determine what sex they are suppose to prefer or gender.

But you could specify people compete athletically on gender not gender ID.

A football team could be made up of gender based people no matter how they looked. Someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner could be playing for the Pittsburg Steelers. Runners, swimmers and pole vaulters would go back to competing on gender not gender ID.

Quote: rxwine

I thought of another possible solution. Science doesn't say despite what people think that gender is the same as gender identification. Just as sexual preference isn't based on gender either. The brain and hormones are the strongest determinant of gender or sexual preference. If it wasn't, people would just look in the mirror to determine what sex they are suppose to prefer or gender.

But you could specify people compete athletically on gender not gender ID.

A football team could be made up of gender based people no matter how they looked. Someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner could be playing for the Pittsburg Steelers. Runners, swimmers and pole vaulters would go back to competing on gender not gender ID.

Would it be possible to please explain what you are trying to get across in a different way? It might be because I'm doing 1,000 things at once today, but even after re-reading, I did not really understand what you are trying to propose.

Quote: Mission146

Would it be possible to please explain what you are trying to get across in a different way? It might be because I'm doing 1,000 things at once today, but even after re-reading, I did not really understand what you are trying to propose.

He is trying to propose a genderless, Brave New World dystopia.

Quote: Mission146

Would it be possible to please explain what you are trying to get across in a different way? It might be because I'm doing 1,000 things at once today, but even after re-reading, I did not really understand what you are trying to propose.

That biological gender can exist apart from identified gender. But both are real things. But you can also accommodate both in many cases, just maybe not in athletics. So you only compete in biological gender for athletics.

Wait...I think I understand now.

My response is fairness in sports has a lot more to do with sex and a lot less to do with gender. I'm not saying that gender is totally irrelevant, but if you had to break it down, I would say that sex (purely unqualified opinion) is the determinate to some extent like 90%.

Women's sports aren't entirely about equality; they are also about fairness. That women have the same athletic opportunities to participate in sports that men do is equality, but at the public school level, football is an exception and girls have to settle for getting to play with the boys if they can make the team. I'm not saying there should not be girls' football teams, if you can get enough girls in given schools interested and enough participating schools to have a viable conference...then go for it!

Anyway, when you see Chris Evert's or Martina Navratilova's positions on this...they are talking about fairness in competition and admitting that it's primarily sex-based in nature. In other words, in terms of sport, they are admitting that...at least at present...women are generally to be considered physically inferior to men. When saying, "Women," and, "Men," I am referring to sex, not gender.

In other aspects of life, such as non sports related jobs, a person can either do the job or they cannot do the job...at least, that's how it should be. You wouldn't assume that a person can or cannot based on sex or gender. An individual person, regardless of sex or gender, either can or cannot. Fairness in jobs is about whether or not you can do it and giving everyone an equal opportunity to have a particular job if they qualify for it physically or in other ways, depending on what the job is.

Fairness in sports is about competitive fairness. You might compete for promotions or advancements in other jobs, but the majority of promotions in other jobs are not going to be based on physical attributes. Put another way, it's typically those who have not been promoted doing the, "Grunt work," so physical abilities aren't generally relevant to promotions...especially not beyond a certain level.

Sporting competitions have mental elements to them, but are fundamentally physical. If someone of the sex female competes with the men, then she is naturally accepting a natural disadvantage and is trying to do it anyway. That's awesome. If someone of the sex male goes and competes with people of the sex female, then they are unfairly advantaging themselves.

It's really that simple.

Quote: rxwine

That biological gender can exist apart from identified gender. But both are real things. But you can also accommodate both in many cases, just maybe not in athletics. So you only compete in biological gender for athletics.

If you are using, "Biological gender," in the same way I am using, "Sex," then I agree. That said, I have no issue with biological gender female going into biological gender male sports if they want to compete there.