would you visit a linear city in Saudi Arabia

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November 10th, 2022 at 12:26:52 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4943
Quote: Gandler
That is very different, HOAs control what is outside and publicly visible. That is very different than saying you can't drink or smoke in your house or have unmarried women visit your house alone etc....



No, HOA's don't but countries do. The US restricts plenty of things within your own home. I don't know why you would think we are different than Saudi. They all restrict some things even if they are different between countries.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
November 10th, 2022 at 8:02:54 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: DRich
No, HOA's don't but countries do. The US restricts plenty of things within your own home. I don't know why you would think we are different than Saudi. They all restrict some things even if they are different between countries.


Its not even close. Saudi Arabia controls speech from home (including online postings), if I posted what I posted above I would probably be gone already.

The U.S. does not control speech at home (or really anywhere). The U.S. does not control religious expression (or lack of it) at home. The U.S. does not control personal relations at home.

What behavior in your home does America control/restrict that is equivalent to Saudi Arabia?

Sure, I mean you can't murder somebody in your house (but even that is pretty lax compared to many countries, because its very easy to claim self-defense in your home under castle doctrine)..... America probably has more property rights than just about any other country.
November 10th, 2022 at 8:11:55 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: AZDuffman
First, the point is the same kind of restrictions. Second, you missed the first point. HOA's are another layer of GOVERNMENT. The people who like them say, "We do not have enough federal rules, not enough state rules, not enough county rules, not enough local rules, I WANT MORE RULES!"

What is so great about "looking uniform" I have no idea. HOA neighborhoods look so artificial to me that I cannot understand people liking paying someone to fine you if you do not do what they say to do.


No that is the point. Because, another layer of rules is not inherently bad. You have to evaluate the merits of each one. And, the great thing about HOAs (again not ones owned by Developers), is that everyone has a (mostly) equal say.

But, I am not forcing anyone to live in an HOA community, the choice is yours, you are very financially successful, buy or rent a house or condo that works for you. I am simply not inherently against the premise of HOAs. Many people like them (evidenced by their rapid growth), for every horror story you see on the news, there are probably thousands of content residents who feel at peace with some semblance of a status quo.

Some HOAs even do the bulk of the work for you (cutting the grass in the front yard, power washing the front of the house, etc...)

HOAs are basically a private government, I do not see how conservatives can be against them. Massive HOAs are basically private cities that do everything themselves from trash collection to security, to parking enforcement, to road maint, to utilities.... It's peak free market (all rules are decided by the owners of the community and enforced via voluntary contract).
November 11th, 2022 at 2:54:23 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Gandler
No that is the point. Because, another layer of rules is not inherently bad. You have to evaluate the merits of each one. And, the great thing about HOAs (again not ones owned by Developers), is that everyone has a (mostly) equal say.


You like being told how to live, I get it. Lots of us do not.

Quote:
But, I am not forcing anyone to live in an HOA community, the choice is yours, you are very financially successful, buy or rent a house or condo that works for you. I am simply not inherently against the premise of HOAs. Many people like them (evidenced by their rapid growth), for every horror story you see on the news, there are probably thousands of content residents who feel at peace with some semblance of a status quo.


They are not growing because "people like them." They are growing because actual and de facto laws make them the only way to develop. In Phoenix if you read the house for sale ads "NO HOA!" is a big selling point.


Quote:
HOAs are basically a private government, I do not see how conservatives can be against them. Massive HOAs are basically private cities that do everything themselves from trash collection to security, to parking enforcement, to road maint, to utilities.... It's peak free market (all rules are decided by the owners of the community and enforced via voluntary contract).


You do not understand how conservatives are against them? Conservatives want less government, not more. We do not need to pay someone to fine us if we do not keep our property up to their standards. As to "rules being decided by the owners" well that is not so much. They have a board that runs things and these boards tend to get filled by fussbudgets who like to tell others what to do. In theory you can get all the homeowners to come to a meeting and vote, but why should you have to do that to get petty rules changed?

Unless I go townhouse of condo I will never buy an HOA property. There is simply zero good reason for them. But for people who want to live like East Germany have at it!
The President is a fink.
November 11th, 2022 at 3:54:02 AM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4943
Quote: Gandler
Its not even close. Saudi Arabia controls speech from home (including online postings), if I posted what I posted above I would probably be gone already.



The point is that all countries put restrictions on their people. Some more, some less. We all have different beliefs, morals, and ethics. One is not necessarily better than another, just different.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
November 11th, 2022 at 5:19:40 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18632
It kind of looks like a modern housing project. But I'm fine with anybody building any new kind of experimental project. Doesn't mean I would necessarily want to invest my time or money in something or live there though.

For instance.

How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
November 11th, 2022 at 6:39:25 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: DRich
The point is that all countries put restrictions on their people. Some more, some less. We all have different beliefs, morals, and ethics. One is not necessarily better than another, just different.


One is better. America (and almost every country in the world) has less restrictions than Saudi Arabia. A county that jails (or worse, look at Jamal Khashoggi), people who are critical of the government (even in the most tame fashion), is drastically inferior to a country that allows virtually anything as far as criticism goes. Of course, all countries put restrictions on people, but its the restrictions that matter.
November 11th, 2022 at 6:46:44 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: AZDuffman
You like being told how to live, I get it. Lots of us do not.



They are not growing because "people like them." They are growing because actual and de facto laws make them the only way to develop. In Phoenix if you read the house for sale ads "NO HOA!" is a big selling point.




You do not understand how conservatives are against them? Conservatives want less government, not more. We do not need to pay someone to fine us if we do not keep our property up to their standards. As to "rules being decided by the owners" well that is not so much. They have a board that runs things and these boards tend to get filled by fussbudgets who like to tell others what to do. In theory you can get all the homeowners to come to a meeting and vote, but why should you have to do that to get petty rules changed?

Unless I go townhouse of condo I will never buy an HOA property. There is simply zero good reason for them. But for people who want to live like East Germany have at it!


You should have to do that to get the rules changes because that is what your contract states.

I have read endless libertarian literature, where there are no governments and local society is based upon voluntary contracts and everything is run by the private sector. That is the summary of a massive HOA. So yes, conservatives should love them based upon followings of libertarian literature.
Of course, my rebuttal is once a "private government" becomes large enough, is it really different than a City/County government? (In many ways its even stricter).
November 11th, 2022 at 7:13:49 AM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4943
Quote: Gandler
One is better. America


You may be biased.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
November 11th, 2022 at 7:22:10 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Gandler
You should have to do that to get the rules changes because that is what your contract states.

I have read endless libertarian literature, where there are no governments and local society is based upon voluntary contracts and everything is run by the private sector. That is the summary of a massive HOA. So yes, conservatives should love them based upon followings of libertarian literature.
Of course, my rebuttal is once a "private government" becomes large enough, is it really different than a City/County government? (In many ways its even stricter).


What you do not grasp is we do not care if it is “private” government. We do not want more silly rules just for rules sake.

You seem to like more rules as long as it is not KSA making them.
The President is a fink.
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