BUD (the King of Beers)

May 24th, 2023 at 7:35:15 AM permalink
DoubleGold
Member since: Jan 26, 2023
Threads: 30
Posts: 2476
Quote: Mission146
I agree with that, but you have pointed to no instance of discrimination, of any kind, as most people would use the word. Having a spokesperson that is (insert type of person) does not discriminate, or reverse discriminate, against anyone. The only exception to that would be if you exclusively only had (type of person) as a spokesperson.

Don't even give me the population representative argument. You're going to get blocked and I might be one of the only people who actually responds to you. If there are more than zero (but still a low percentage) transpeople, which I think we can agree to, then having exactly one trans spokesperson is, essentially, just as representative as having zero.



You cannot take away valid arguments in a debate unless you're a mod.

So you're a mod, correct?


Apparently, the discrimination occurred as the result of BUD placing Carson King on a can of beer.

The reverse discrimination occurred when BUD placed Dylan on the can of beer.


Also, my self-esteem is not dependent on you nor anyone else replying to me.
May 24th, 2023 at 7:49:10 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: DoubleGold
You cannot take away valid arguments in a debate unless you're a mod.

So you're a mod, correct?


Apparently, the discrimination occurred as the result of BUD placing Carson King on a can of beer.

The reverse discrimination occurred when BUD placed Dylan on the can of beer.


Also, my self-esteem is not dependent on you nor anyone else replying to me.


I don't know what your first statement or following question is meant to convey. In any event, I am not a mod.

It's not a valid argument; that is my point. If some 0.5% of people are trans, in the United States, then having one transgender spokesperson, ever, is just as population representative as having zero. Would having an albino spokesperson automatically be discriminatory to all non-albinos? Would having a blonde spokesperson be discriminatory to people with any other hair color?

Your argument is, essentially: People exist and do things; therefore, discrimination, or reverse discrimination, in all instances.

I don't care about your self-esteem; I care about not being annoyed by purposefully bad arguments.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
May 24th, 2023 at 7:57:38 AM permalink
DoubleGold
Member since: Jan 26, 2023
Threads: 30
Posts: 2476
Quote: Mission146
I don't know what your first statement or following question is meant to convey. In any event, I am not a mod.

It's not a valid argument; that is my point. If some 0.5% of people are trans, in the United States, then having one transgender spokesperson, ever, is just as population representative as having zero. Would having an albino spokesperson automatically be discriminatory to all non-albinos? Would having a blonde spokesperson be discriminatory to people with any other hair color?

Your argument is, essentially: People exist and do things; therefore, discrimination, or reverse discrimination, in all instances.

I don't care about your self-esteem; I care about not being annoyed by purposefully bad arguments.



Good to know about not being a mod.


I think about 7% are classified as trans last I read, but growing very fast.

I don't know how reliable that number is.


I would likely have to see a real example and study the context before I could tell you if something was wrong or not.
May 24th, 2023 at 8:04:57 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: DoubleGold
Good to know about not being a mod.


I think about 7% are classified as trans last I read, but growing very fast.

I don't know how reliable that number is.


I would likely have to see a real example and study the context before I could tell you if something was wrong or not.


The last thing I am in favor of doing is broadening what constitutes discrimination, especially with the victim mentality that seems to permeate the culture these days, so it is not a discussion I would be willing to entertain...to your last sentence.

I don't think that number is very reliable at all. I go outside occasionally. Maybe in San Francisco.

They also tend to count people who identify as, 'Non-binary,' in with the purposefully high estimates. I wouldn't. The reason I wouldn't is because, not only does, 'Non-binary,' fail to convey anything, but someone could apply it to themselves despite otherwise fitting a different category (that actually does convey something) in every other way.

One might say, "I identify as non-binary. I was assigned female at birth, but I feel only about 80% feminine, and sometimes..."

I reply, "Listen, let me stop you there. I don't care if you live or die, much less do I care about your lifetime of experience and discovery vis-a-vis sexuality; let's just do first names and call it a day. We get names for a reason. If you want to be unique, just use your name; that's why you were given one."
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
May 24th, 2023 at 8:07:48 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18632
Quote: Mission146
I mean, I would assume that my partners have been aware that I am a heterosexual and am male both by birth and gender. If not, they could have asked and I'd certainly tell them those things.

I also find it interesting that you would attach a stigmata to being transgendered as, "Revealing everything negative." It shouldn't be seen as a negative, but rather, as a relatively neutral fact about someone.

You're a guy, right? I am not gay. I would not date you. I would not have sex with you. I do not see you being a guy as a negative.

I do not see a transperson being trans as a negative about them or something that speaks negatively to the content of their character; I simply do not wish to have sex with individuals who are transpeople.


I assume people know how society is currently reacting towards trans people, so to automatically assume someone is going to react positively is maybe hopeful but not realistic to assume. Unless someone is going to a trans convention, I wouldn't assume that currently. Just as a women or minority showing up somewhere 60 years ago where they weren't normally seen is going to be approached more carefully by most after some negative experiences.

I contend that many straight people only (should be don't not only edit) tell their partners negative history that has little or no chance of being reveled otherwise. "You beat one of your girlfriends" but there is no police record because she didn't file charges. And other negative things that should be told to the other person. Do you hold everyone to that standard as well. Or just things you can find out obviously.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
May 24th, 2023 at 8:14:21 AM permalink
DoubleGold
Member since: Jan 26, 2023
Threads: 30
Posts: 2476
Quote: Mission146
The last thing I am in favor of doing is broadening what constitutes discrimination, especially with the victim mentality that seems to permeate the culture these days, so it is not a discussion I would be willing to entertain...to your last sentence.

I don't think that number is very reliable at all. I go outside occasionally. Maybe in San Francisco.

They also tend to count people who identify as, 'Non-binary,' in with the purposefully high estimates. I wouldn't. The reason I wouldn't is because, not only does, 'Non-binary,' fail to convey anything, but someone could apply it to themselves despite otherwise fitting a different category (that actually does convey something) in every other way.

One might say, "I identify as non-binary. I was assigned female at birth, but I feel only about 80% feminine, and sometimes..."

I reply, "Listen, let me stop you there. I don't care if you live or die, much less do I care about your lifetime of experience and discovery vis-a-vis sexuality; let's just do first names and call it a day. We get names for a reason. If you want to be unique, just use your name; that's why you were given one."



I interpreted the 7% number as all cases of gender dysphoria, if that's what they call it.

I don't know if transsexual is the same thing or not.

A much smaller percentage would be those that got surgically operated on.


I don't understand most of it, so I'm learning as I go.


I agree with your sentiment though.

I have yet to see one, so it does seem like that 7% number is high.
May 24th, 2023 at 9:02:32 AM permalink
Mission146
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Quote: rxwine
I assume people know how society is currently reacting towards trans people, so to automatically assume someone is going to react positively is maybe hopeful but not realistic to assume. Unless someone is going to a trans convention, I wouldn't assume that currently. Just as a women or minority showing up somewhere 60 years ago where they weren't normally seen is going to be approached more carefully by most after some negative experiences.

I contend that many straight people only (should be don't not only edit) tell their partners negative history that has little or no chance of being reveled otherwise. "You beat one of your girlfriends" but there is no police record because she didn't file charges. And other negative things that should be told to the other person. Do you hold everyone to that standard as well. Or just things you can find out obviously.


I would suggest that there are men and women out there who are specifically inclined, or neutral, when it comes to the question of dating a trans person. The simple fact is that we cannot ignore that trans people have a different gender than what is reflected by their birth sex.

I find it unusual that it is suggested that being forthright about what can be taken as a given, for so called, 'Cis-people,' (that being sex) should be seen as an undue burden placed on trans individuals. It is not undue. Imagine that a person gets into a relationship with someone else, but in so doing, has always wanted to have kids, via natural means, with another person. Should a transwoman, knowing this, get to withhold the information that they are not actually capable of doing so for whatever duration they wish? All the way up to and beyond the altar?

I don't think so. Equally, I would argue that, if one knows another wishes to naturally have children with a partner, that a sterile man or infertile woman should make those facts known either when that topic is brought up, or preferably, in advance of that.

Revealing your birth sex is much different than...I don't know; it's your example. Some past crime? The number of sexual partners you've had?

I would also argue that not revealing something is a much different social infraction than is deliberately misleading someone to believe something.

Your final example is also poor because it compares something that would be a crime, and represent potential for imminent risk to body/life to the other, to something that is neither of those things.

Simply put: I think there are two social stigmas that we would be better off without:

1.) Trans being considered stigmatic.

2.) Not desiring sexual contact with a trans person as being considered stigmatic.

The best counterexample I can come up with is that of the elderly. I do not wish to have sex with women over the age of sixty, or so. At least, I can't recall an instance of wishing to do so, thus far. That is similar to someone being trans. It doesn't invalidate 60+ year olds as human beings or suggest that something is fundamentally wrong with them, nor does that I don't want to have sex with guys, it's simply a matter of preference.

If someone is a transwoman, then I consider that person a man as far as my personal sexuality is concerned. If they get to pick whatever gender they feel best suits them, then I am not out of my rights to pick who I do, or don't, want to have sex with.

It's not even a question of respect. I can respect someone without wanting to ^%#78 them.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
May 24th, 2023 at 9:14:42 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18632
Quote: Mission146
I would suggest that there are men and women out there who are specifically inclined, or neutral, when it comes to the question of dating a trans person. The simple fact is that we cannot ignore that trans people have a different gender than what is reflected by their birth sex.

I find it unusual that it is suggested that being forthright about what can be taken as a given, for so called, 'Cis-people,' (that being sex) should be seen as an undue burden placed on trans individuals. It is not undue. Imagine that a person gets into a relationship with someone else, but in so doing, has always wanted to have kids, via natural means, with another person. Should a transwoman, knowing this, get to withhold the information that they are not actually capable of doing so for whatever duration they wish? All the way up to and beyond the altar?

I don't think so. Equally, I would argue that, if one knows another wishes to naturally have children with a partner, that a sterile man or infertile woman should make those facts known either when that topic is brought up, or preferably, in advance of that.

Revealing your birth sex is much different than...I don't know; it's your example. Some past crime? The number of sexual partners you've had?

I would also argue that not revealing something is a much different social infraction than is deliberately misleading someone to believe something.

Your final example is also poor because it compares something that would be a crime, and represent potential for imminent risk to body/life to the other, to something that is neither of those things.

Simply put: I think there are two social stigmas that we would be better off without:

1.) Trans being considered stigmatic.

2.) Not desiring sexual contact with a trans person as being considered stigmatic.

The best counterexample I can come up with is that of the elderly. I do not wish to have sex with women over the age of sixty, or so. At least, I can't recall an instance of wishing to do so, thus far. That is similar to someone being trans. It doesn't invalidate 60+ year olds as human beings or suggest that something is fundamentally wrong with them, nor does that I don't want to have sex with guys, it's simply a matter of preference.

If someone is a transwoman, then I consider that person a man as far as my personal sexuality is concerned. If they get to pick whatever gender they feel best suits them, then I am not out of my rights to pick who I do, or don't, want to have sex with.

It's not even a question of respect. I can respect someone without wanting to ^%#78 them.


I think i was trying to note in more simple terms, that I don’t think there is any more stigma to trans person not telling you something important they should have revealed than any other person. Because the stuff someone should’ve have told someone before they got deep in a relationship is not limited to trans people.

Or is it worse that a trans person fooled someone than anyone else who does it? No. Yes, a trans person might fool some man that their vagina was the result of auto accident not elective trans surgery and that they were really a woman. Men have those pump up penis thingamagigies that restore erections. That could be an explanation for a malfunctioning penis.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
May 24th, 2023 at 9:18:52 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146


You can't take an argument and have it be acceptable counter-argument for one activity, but not another activity.

You guys feel free to, 'Network,' all you want. I will not do it if I work a traditional (and physically located) job in today's climate. I will refuse to answer all questions that are not specifically related to work; I don't care what they are.

They could pull me into HR for that. My response would be, "So, I'm in here for keeping things strictly business? Are we done here and I can go back on the floor, or would you prefer I sue the company, instead? I assure you, this behavior will not change. My recommendation is to tell her not to attempt to discuss anything not related to business with me."


Good luck in your career if you do that. Know what that will make you? The person in the office who when they need something will get the bare minimum. It will make you the person that will not be able to bid into other jobs because you will be tagged a jerk to work with. It will make you the one that people do not show "tricks" of the job to make things easier.

I had a talk with someone about the younger generations and even coming into the office. Many people are refusing to do so. He said they tried to explain "being seen" and how it helps in your career. They took it to mean "come in or you do not get promoted." Said they do not get the point of "watercooler chats" and knowing people around the office. It is generational per what he is seeing. Remaining boomers at the office get it without being told. Gen X almost totally the same. Millennials a few get it but Gen Z does not grasp it at all.
The President is a fink.
May 24th, 2023 at 9:47:20 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: rxwine


I think i was trying to note in more simple terms, that I don’t think there is any more stigma to trans person not telling you something important they should have revealed than any other person. Because the stuff someone should’ve have told someone before they got deep in a relationship is not limited to trans people.

Or is it worse that a trans person fooled someone than anyone else who does it? No. Yes, a trans person might fool some man that their vagina was the result of auto accident not elective trans surgery and that they were really a woman. Men have those pump up penis thingamagigies that restore erections. That could be an explanation for a malfunctioning penis.


First Paragraph: That's not untrue, but one person can discontinue having a romantic, or sexual, relationship with any other person for any reason they wish. Imagine if I dated a woman who gave birth to a baby before I met her, but then decided she didn't want it and killed it in an alley somewhere---I am going to both terminate that relationship and report the matter to police if the statute of limitations has not tolled.

Second Paragraph: Is it worse? I don't know; I have no desire to die on the hill that it is. Anything can be grounds to discontinue a relationship, pursuant to my first paragraph. I also don't know that, 'Fooling,' a romantic/sexual partner, therefore having an entire relationship that is built upon a lie, is ever good. Is that a thing anyone should do? I don't think it is.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman