Why Does the NFL Hate Jesus?

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6 members have voted

September 2nd, 2013 at 6:56:26 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
How often does a Heisman Trophy winner end up not making it in pro-football?


You can amke a good argument that for the QB position the Heisman is the kiss of death. There's Tebow, of course, but also Vinnie Testaverde and Doug Flutie.

On the other hand, consider this list of QBs who not only didn't win the Heisman, but were also drafted rather late, if at all: Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner.

Favre is particularly itneresting. He was drafted in the second round by the Atlanta Falcons. He played little there, completing no passes at all, and was traded to Green bay for a first round draft pick. He got to play with the Packers only because starter Don Majkowski(SP?) was injured (does anyone remember him?). His first game was so bad, the fans demanded the third-stringer step up. But it all turned out sort of well in the end.
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September 2nd, 2013 at 8:04:09 AM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: Nareed
You can amke a good argument that for the QB position the Heisman is the kiss of death. There's Tebow, of course, but also Vinnie Testaverde and Doug Flutie.


Flutie - 20 year career in the NFL and CFL, last man to kick a drop goal in the NFL, 3 grey cups to his name.
Testaverde - 20 year career in the NFL.

Neither were flops. Neither had stellar careers.

I think you mean Eric Crouch (4 unexciting years in NFL, half a game in the CFL) or Jason White (never drafted, never played in the Pro's).
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September 2nd, 2013 at 8:10:06 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
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Quote: RonC


On the flip side, there have been a good number seemingly average college quarterbacks make it as back-ups in the NFL. Why? Because they did have the size, speed, and mechanics. At one point, Maryland had a whole group of quiarterbacks in the NFL. They were good players but not often Heisman candidates. They were built for the pros.


I think mentality comes into play. Being just average at college level they may really just be happy to be in the NFL. Like many of us were in our first jobs, our first big break. So they are flexible. And do not underestimate how it could help when they are willing to help out in practice, the film room, or just mentoring younger players to the life of a NFL player. I swear this kept Charlie Batch around the Steelers as long as it did.

Sometimes competent is as needed as capable.
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September 3rd, 2013 at 12:28:20 AM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: AZDuffman
I swear this kept Charlie Batch around the Steelers as long as it did.


That and he also had, I'm told, money issues that kept his motivation high. Fun fact about Batch - he's 6th on the all time Detroit Lions passing list. That tells you a lot about the Lions QBs ... Stafford will take the all time passing leader there this year

Quote:
Sometimes competent is as needed as capable.


Batch has a very slow release now, but a great vision for the game. I've heard great things about his locker room and side line leadership. I assume he'll coach at some level.
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September 3rd, 2013 at 6:55:47 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: TheCesspit
Flutie - 20 year career in the NFL and CFL, last man to kick a drop goal in the NFL, 3 grey cups to his name.


Emphasis added.

See, when someone is remembered for a gimmick play in a 20-year career, it tells you all you need to know about him.

Quote:
Testaverde - 20 year career in the NFL.


And he's not even remembered for a trick play. I think he had the most effect on the NFL before he played. That was when a breif race for the bottom ensued, so the team with the first draft pick could get him, for all the good that did the Bucs.

Quote:
Neither were flops. Neither had stellar careers.


Right. But the Heisman trophy is the highest honor bestowed on a college player. So they had stellar careers in college. Obviously, and at least for the QB position, that doesn't translate well into the NFL.

But then it seems picking a good QB is an arcane art dependent as much on luck as on skill. That's why you see things like the Steelers no taking Dan Marino(*) in the 80s, well after Bradshaw retired. Or Favre being traded off the Falcons. Here you have two teams with troubled records, to say the least, and without a competent QB at the controls, letting go two of the best ever players in their position in history. While on the other hand the Fluties, Testaverdes, Blackledges, Leinarts, Cassells and others are highly drafted, or courted or coveted, and then dash expectations.

(*) In the 80s the Steelers had a first-class O-line and a good running game, while maintaining a rather good defense still. Had they drafted Marino, he would not be remembered now as the best QB to never win a Super Bowl, I'm sure (and only mildly facetious).
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September 3rd, 2013 at 8:10:51 AM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: Nareed
Quote: TheCesspit
Flutie - 20 year career in the NFL and CFL, last man to kick a drop goal in the NFL, 3 grey cups to his name.


Emphasis added.

See, when someone is remembered for a gimmick play in a 20-year career, it tells you all you need to know about him.


I threw that in as a bit of trivia fluff. Glad you appreciated it (/sarcasm)


Quote:
Right. But the Heisman trophy is the highest honor bestowed on a college player. So they had stellar careers in college. Obviously, and at least for the QB position, that doesn't translate well into the NFL.


No doubt, but the number of players who have 20 year pro football careers is small. There are very few Heismann winners who made the Hall of Fame (no peeking, but who was the last?). But it's not a kiss of death, and more importantly, and my entire point, calling Flutie and Testaverde 'flops' or even Tebow-like does them a grave disservice. The trophy is a just a sign that someone is worth looking at, not that will be worth taking. The job isn't to identify great pro-football players, but to reward the best at the college level.

Flutie, by the way was drafted in Round 11, the lowest ever pick of Heismann winner at that point.

Testaverde is 7th in the NFL all time passing. Brady and Brees will pass him. It's more a testament to his longevity than much else, but still impressive. He's also the oldest QB to win a NFL game (44).

So yeah, I bet Tebow looks forward to having a Heismann career like Testaverde and Flutie.
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September 3rd, 2013 at 11:44:05 AM permalink
chickenman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 0
Posts: 368
I get that the last 25 years just cut out Testaverde and Flutie, but look here Interesting stats on last 16 Heisman QBs
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September 3rd, 2013 at 12:34:50 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: chickenman
I get that the last 25 years just cut out Testaverde and Flutie, but look here Interesting stats on last 16 Heisman QBs


Good article.

My argument is purely that Flutie and Testaverde are not good examples of Heismann flame outs. In fact, looking at that article, the complete opposite.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
September 3rd, 2013 at 1:24:09 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: TheCesspit
Good article.


Yes, indeed. And thanks to Chickenman for posting it.

Quote:
My argument is purely that Flutie and Testaverde are not good examples of Heismann flame outs. In fact, looking at that article, the complete opposite.


Well, form the article:

"Do you know how many of the other 15 Heisman Trophy winning quarterbacks started and won an NFL playoff game?

Answer: Zero."

Now, the point in the NFL is to win the Super Bowl. Naturally only a few teams have a reasonable chance of doing so each season. Say five, or maybe as many as eight on a very good year. That's at most 1/4 of all teams. Now, to win it, first you need to win in the playoffs. So if exactly zero out of fifteen Heisman-winning QBs have won an NFL playoff game, well, do the math.

Flutie and Testaverde may have had long careers and amde a ton of money (comapred to regular mortals), but they had little impact in the League. The last shows a Heisman QB is no guarantee for a team in need of a good quarterback.

Flutie, BTW, was drafted late solely because of his height, or lack thereof. Which does go to show he was a talented athlete. But far, far short from a hot prospect in the NFL.
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September 3rd, 2013 at 2:43:51 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
That's only of the last 25 years. 1/4 of those QBs are still playing, and may win playoff games one day (I'd bet of RGIII to break that duck first).

Testaverde won a couple of games in the playoffs, and within that 25 year period the article notes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Plunkett - Superbowl MVP and first pick in the 1971 draft pool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Staubach - Superbowl MVP

Just too grab a couple of names from outside the last 25.

My point still stands anyways.... Testaverde and Flutie had good careers, and writing them off shows a lack of respect for some of the pros to play this game, and over expectations for ANY player coming into the NFL.

I'd argue the guy who won 3 Grey Cups and still came back to the NFL (and still much respected in the CFL) and the guy in the top 10 all time passing yards DID have an effect on the game. The fact I can recall facts about these two guys tells me a that they had effect on the league. The fact is QB more than any other position takes a different set of skills from the college game to succeed. The two you selected did pretty damn well. I don't disagree that winning the Heismann is no hallmark for a QB. I absolutely disagree with using Flutie and Testaverde as examples of washouts in the NFL, or even comparable to Tebow's 4 seasons.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
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