New high capacity airplanes

Quote: Evenbob

This is so austere it looks like a prisoner transport plane.

Perhaps so, but the executive wants to avoid the common carriers where he will be TREATED as if its the prisoner transport plane.

Light jets often carry donor organs. They don't need no windows and don't need no amenities, they just need to sqwak Lfeguard and get there NOW.

Not everyone travels trans continental distances, some executives have regional responsibilities. If they are cutting down trees in California and growing golf courses and condominiums they don't need to fly coast to coast. Their destination airport might even limit them a bit from a humungous plane, they want a small nimble jet to get in and out and solve the problems quickly.

Quote: Pacomartin

The cabin dimension of Honda are 4.80' H x 17.80' L x 5.00' W.
In comparison a queen size bed is 5' by 6'8"

I thought it looked 5' wide. Put in couches
so you can lay down and not feel like you're
in a shoebox..

Quote: Fleastiff

Perhaps so, but the executive wants to avoid the common carriers where he will be TREATED as if its the prisoner transport plane.

I understand executive privelege. But this air taxi business seems very expensive.

This taxi service in London sells their unused legs online. These are segments that they would have to fly to service their existing clients, and they are just trying to get revenue for them rather than transport an empty plane. They fly tiny Mustangs which are four seats with no bathroom.

For example next week they have a special on a 300 mile route across the Channel
16 Jul 2014 at 12:30 Birmingham (EGBB / BHX) Paris Le Bourget (LFPB / LBG) £1,750

So that is $3000 to fly 300 miles at a specific time with seating up to 4 people for about 1 hour.

The company has a fleet of 6 citation Mustangs at $3.28million apiece. So that is $20 million in capital investment. Plus maintenance, pilots, etc.
Their prepaid plan is $132,717 for 50 hours or $2654 per hour

A Cessna 172 (4 passenger single-engine, high-wing fixed-wing aircraft) costs about $300K, roughly 10% of a citation Mustang. They aren't very pretty and they only cruise at 140 mph instead of 400 mph. Suppose you could rent a plane like that for the 300 mile trip. How valuable is an hour of travel time?

Quote: Pacomartin

. They fly tiny Mustangs which are four seats with no bathroom.

So that is $3000 to fly 300 miles at a specific time with seating up to 4 people for about 1 hour.

Their prepaid plan is $132,717 for 50 hours or $2654 per hour

A Cessna 172 (4 passenger single-engine, high-wing fixed-wing aircraft) costs about $300K, roughly 10% of a citation Mustang. They aren't very pretty and they only cruise at 140 mph instead of 400 mph. Suppose you could rent a plane like that for the 300 mile trip. How valuable is an hour of travel time?

Yes, I would agree there appears to be a lack of economic sense to some of this.

Query as a Cessna 172 being a four passenger airplane. If you want to use it as a taxi... you've got your driver in the left seat, ONE passenger in the Right seat ... and two teensy weensy midgets in that rear seat that officially holds two passengers and there had better be a strong tailwind for that Midlands to Paris in a 172 flight at a bouncy 12,000 feet.

If normal ops are 2654 then 3000 is too high a price for the unsold Midlands to Paris segment being offered.

What the Air Taxi needs is a list such as cruise lines have. Cruise line calls you, you say "Yes" and are out the door in fifteen minutes fully packed ready to get to the dock within three hours. So for an Air Taxi it would have to be Midlands to Paris 400 dollars.

I thought some models of Cessna 172 had four passenger seats and two front seats.

Well, "prepaid ops (50 hours at a time)" are US$2654 per hour.

I guess the point is that it is fine to talk about Air Taxis and fractional ownership where you choose the jet suitable to your trip, but the prices are really astronomically high.

Although there are no standard prices posted for each model of jet, it seems as if you pay at least one or two million dollars to get an increase in range by a few hundred nautical miles. If you could get a an increase of range by eliminating windows that would seem more economical. But no one dares try it (outside of the supersonic jet). Some of these new turboprops go 395 ktas. But probably executives don't want to ride in a prop.

Type	Range nm	ktas	psgrs	Useful Load lb	Takeoff ft
Citation Mustang	1,207	340	5	3135	3,110
Citation M2	1,580	404	7	3800	3,210
Citation CJ2+	1,750	418	9	4595	3,360
Citation CJ3+	2,070	416	9	5490	3,180
Citation XLS+	2,111	441	9	7540	3,560
Citation CJ4	2,192	451	10	6970	3,190
Citation Latitude	2,500	440	9	N/A	4,030
Citation Sovereign+	3,188	460	12	12695	3,530
Citation X+	3,408	527	12	14436	5,280
Citation Longitude	4,000	490	12	N/A	5,400

Washington Dulles to LAX is 1982 nm
Seattle to Miami is 2365 nm

So I suppose that CJ3+ is considered a transcontinental model, but the Latitude would cover almost every variation. If you are running it in shuttle mode, then range may not be a real issue.

I had a friend who worked for GEICO which is one of the cheapest corporations in USA. But they ran a four person corporate jet back and forth daily from Washington Dulles Intl, Washington, DC (IAD) to Long Island Macarthur Arpt, Islip, NY (ISP). The distance is only 228 nautical miles, but the connections through JFK or La Guardia took so much time, that every one day trip became an overnight trip. So the corporate jet was used not just for executives, but also for claims adjustors. They would sometimes take it the 1000 nm to their office in Dallas, TX, but they always worried about the lack of a lavatory.

The boss of my company has his own turboprop. He seems to find it suitable for his needs. Mostly he flies from the office in Oklahoma City, to the prospect in Ohio, and to corporate in Denver. He has his own pilots -- they come to company outings. A couple people in the office are taking flying lessons/buying fractional shares of Pipers and Cessnas. I took one lesson and had to give it up because of my schedule.

Quote: Pacomartin

I thought some models of Cessna 172 had four passenger seats and two front seats.

I guess you are right. I'm familiar with 150 Trainer, 172, 182 from my hitchhiking days which were of course a long time ago. Most planes are actually offered with a variety of interior configurations some with more publicity than others.

Elimination of windows sounds good from an engineering viewpoint but I wonder if it would mean re-certification?

Airparks are becoming more numerous and I think regional aviation will boom rather than just the transcontinental market. Some planes fly spare parts and electronic technicians rather than movie stars doing events on two coasts. One air taxi service in Florida sold guaranteed seats but not guaranteed destinations to the State of Florida.

Windows are only there as a passenger demand, but I don't think it has much effect on fuel economy.

I don't think it would require recertification -- there are all kinds of cargo versions of major planes, all without windows.

Quote: Pacomartin

A Cessna 172 (4 passenger single-engine, high-wing fixed-wing aircraft)

More 172's have been built than any other
plane in the world. Started in 1955 and has
never been out of production. I've flown
in a 172, they are very noisy in the cockpit.

Quote: Pacomartin

I thought some models of Cessna 172 had four passenger seats and two front seats.

....

Hi, Paco

I'm not going to say there are NO 6 pax C172's out there, especially since you have that picture of the cabin up. But it's highly unusual, and the airframe's not rated for 6 adults, only 4 plus some baggage. C206 (stationaire) is usually outfitted for 6, C207 for 7, C210 is usually 5-6. When they're talking pax capacity in small airplanes, they count the pilot's seat as one of the pax. Me, I want a C208 (caravan); carries just about anything you need, 10 pax, great for the islands or wherever. Kind of expensive, though, even used.

Here's a picture of the airplane I got certified in; it's a C150 from the early 1960's. It's still flying; one of the other people who certified in it bought it when the FBO's owner died, and he's keeping it going in Idaho. Which is a nice thought; I was terribly fond of that aircraft, and thought seriously of buying it myself.