New high capacity airplanes

October 31st, 2014 at 12:46:58 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: terapined
Interesting view of the industry.


Refinements to issues:
DRY AIR: Its not necessarily a perceptible problem or a per flight problem. Its an industry-wide temptation: to save fuel. Use bleed air to fly at a lower CABIN altitude and your fuel is paying for passenger comfort, not plane transportation. Use bleed air to fly at a higher CABIN altitude and you can turn an in the red flight into an in the black flight by saving on fuel costs. The drawback is that general humidity is less, perceived mainly by females, endured the most by female employees. Even if female passengers don't all disembark complaining of dry tits and heading en masse to an airport watering hole, they have experienced dehydration. Yes, there will be some differences in hydrocarbons but some doctors say its the dehydration that enhances breast cancer rates in silicon valley clean rooms, not the exotic chemicals.

TAKE OFF TIMES:
Two issues here. Airlines want better clock times such as 1:10 or 1:15 rather than 1:12 or 1:14.
Main issue however is: COST ALLOCATION. If you spend X Billion but only use the runway at concentrated times of the day, its a waste of assets. Now late afternoon in Phoenix and I can understand no planes taking off: Its known as density altitude. Some days Phoenix is so hot that the density altitude is off the charts and a takeoff would be an "experiment". Passengers don't like to be flown as an experiment in how much lift the wings will have when its super hot. Or consider Reno, I'd prefer a morning take off where the pilot can see all those mountains around him than an afternoon takeoff where he won't be climbing due to the temperature/pressure situation but those mountains sure ain't getting lower to help him. No body objects to time limitations imposed by aeronautical physics. But big heavy aircraft have physical constraints that smaller nimble commuter aircraft do not have.

Hub and Spoke systems help the airlines by having this early morning capture as planes leave for the hub and a later afternoon concentration as all those captive passengers are returned from the hub by a large number of arrivals. Passengers have a longer total flying and waiting times than if they could fly direct from spoke to spoke, short flight and no layover.

MILES/POINTS: Illusory promises. Airlines keep giving oodles and oodles of points and making it more and more difficult to use them. You don't want a car out of gas on the freeway because the driver only wants a Chevron station and you shouldn't have passenger traffic and therefore flight changes influenced by Passenger Loyalty Points, particularly when such points are never going to be redeemed anyway.
October 31st, 2014 at 1:03:50 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Fleastiff
DRY AIR: Its not necessarily a perceptible problem or a per flight problem. Its an industry-wide temptation: to save fuel. Use bleed air to fly at a lower CABIN altitude and your fuel is paying for passenger comfort, not plane transportation. Use bleed air to fly at a higher CABIN altitude and you can turn an in the red flight into an in the black flight by saving on fuel costs.


787 Dreamliner takes flight says that the Dreamliner will fly at 6000' cabin altitude instead of 8000'. Are you saying that the airline could still dial back this pressure to save fuel?

This saving fuel concepts are getting some bothersome press. Including the charge made by Spain that Ryan Air was sending out too many jets with too little fuel to increase efficiency. Widespread delays were worsened because the jets did not have enough fuel to remain in the air.
October 31st, 2014 at 7:53:14 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
Like this?


Not in my case. It was fog, filling up all the cabin.

Quote:
Yes, it does seem very strange that this little tiny country could wrest the #1 position of long haul international travel from Lufthansa, British Airways, United, Delta, and American.


As I said, a convenient location. The Middle East is a convenient stop over from the Far East to Europe or even the Americas.

Quote:
There may come a day with the new airport when Mexico City will have the busiest airport in the Americas (instead of #20). But considering it is the biggest city in the Americas, that wouldn't be appropriate.


I can't conceive that ever happening. It's not well located.

Quote:
Of all the indulgences of the very rich, spending a fortune for luxurious travel seems the most outrageous. The idea of spending $20K-$40K for something that lasts 12-15 hours makes almost everything else pale in comparison. Even the Ritz Carlton in NYC is $1.6K per day.


The very rich but also travel writers with frequent flier miles to spare.

The question that comes to mind is: does an alternative exist?

Say a private jet. It wouldn't be as luxurious, but you could easily fit in a shower, table and bed for two people.

There could be further developments, too. Picture first class divided into small cabins with four seats divided by a table (2 seats facing fore, two aft). Later on two rows of two-deck bunk beds could be set up. On a 12-15 hour flight, 6-8 hours of comfy sleep lying down would be great.

No shower, though.

But the price could be just slightly higher than first class. Call it first class plus or some other thing.

I should read up on long-distance travel in the XX century prior to the advent of the intercontinental and transcontinental jets. I know a great deal of it was by rail, but a fair bit was by piston-driven prop planes making lots of stops.

Sleeper cars were common in trains, though of course not everyone could afford them. Beds on planes were 1) a weighty liability and 2) unnecessary even for long trips. But as longer flights become more popular, the idea of a bed makes more sense. We'll be seeing more of this in time. until we get real super/hypersonic travel and kill distance within our world once and for all.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
October 31st, 2014 at 2:32:30 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Pacomartin
says that the Dreamliner will fly at 6000' cabin altitude instead of 8000'. Are you saying that the airline could still dial back this pressure to save fuel?
I don't think the Dreamliner has the same bleed air setup but a pilot can always shut off anything if he really wants to. That is one advantage of the Dreamliner,,, there won't be a dollar oriented temptation to do things like that on a regular basis.

Quote: Pacomartin
This saving fuel concepts are getting some bothersome press. Including the charge made by Spain that Ryan Air was sending out too many jets with too little fuel to increase efficiency. Widespread delays were worsened because the jets did not have enough fuel to remain in the air.
Well, what was that a pot and kettle?

ALL planes tend to arrive at their destination with low fuel and yes, you make really good money when you don't haul extra fuel. A pilot saying "low fuel" is not really going to be handled all that expeditiously, but a pilot who broadcasts "Minimum Fuel" will get priority in the landing process. If it happens to often a pilot can expect to fill out some paperwork. Some planes do not actually have the intended flight plus likely reserve for alternative destination and some fly by declaring their alternative airport as likely to improve.

Look at what happened in China: a Beijing bound airliner had to divert due to severe smog but was told by each of its alternative airports that it could not land unless they were nearly out of fuel. Beijing bound plane wandered around for awhile bleating on the radio and finally got permission to enter desired airspace, declared its Minimum Fuel situation and landed at its alternative airport "on fumes". (Actually it was not quite that bad but it would have been difficult for them to make a second landing attempt. A Go Around and the usual TOGA throttle settings would have forced the plane to land with not even enough fuel to taxi off the runway.


There are some airlines that are marginal with fuel and marginal with maintenance... it is a safety issue. People would actually prefer cheap tickets to tickets at a safe price.
October 31st, 2014 at 8:37:50 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Nareed
As I said, a convenient location. The Middle East is a convenient stop over from the Far East to Europe or even the Americas.



The center of the land world is in Northern Frannce. By this I mean the point that encompasses the maximum fractional area of the land of the world within a radius of 10,000 km. It is also known as the "land hemisphere". The opposite hemisphere is the "water hemisphere since it is the hemisphere at which the maximum percentage of ocean is included. Specifically the land hemisphere is centered at 47°13′N 1°32′W (in the city of Nantes, France). The notable countries in the water hemisphere are Australia and New Zealand.

So London, Paris, and Frankfurt are the closest big cities to the center of the landed earth. So if you look at the longest flight of each airline, the European carriers are not near the top since they are close to the center of the earth. Other than Santiago and Buenos Aires they seldom have to fly more than 10,000 km. At the same time Australia and NZ are outside the range limits of all commercial aircraft.

In August 1967, Aerolineas Argentinas established the first non-stop to go 1/4 circumference of the world between Madrid and Buenos Aires (10,100 kilometres ).
The Middle East has been running a campaign to convince people that somehow they are more convenient as they are closer to the middle of the Earth.

km Airline Flight number Route Aircraft Type
13,804 Qantas QF 8 Dallas/Fort Worth to Sydney Airbus A380-800
13,582 Delta Air Lines DL 201 Johannesburg to Atlanta Boeing 777-200LR
13,502 Etihad Airways EY 171 Abu Dhabi to Los Angeles Boeing 777-200LR
13,420 Emirates EK 215 Dubai to Los Angeles Airbus A380-800
13,409 Saudia SV 41 Jeddah to Los Angeles Boeing 777-300ER
13,072 American Airlines AA 137 Dallas/Fort Worth to Hong Kong Boeing 777-300ER
12,990 Cathay Pacific CX 831/841/845 New York-JFK to Hong Kong Boeing 777-300ER
12,980 United Airlines UA 117 Newark to Hong Kong Boeing 777-200ER
12,951 Qatar Airways QR 77 Doha to Houston Boeing 777-200LR
12,878 China Southern CZ 300 New York-JFK to Guangzhou Boeing 777-300ER
12,825 South African Airways SA 203 Johannesburg to New York Airbus A340-600
12,569 Air Canada AC 15 Toronto-Pearson to Hong Kong Boeing 777-200LR
12,565 Air India AI 191 Mumbai to Newark Boeing 777-300ER
12,565 China Airlines CI 12 Taipei to New York-JFK Boeing 747-400
12,565 EVA Air BR 32 Taipei to New York-JFK Boeing 777-300ER
12,189 El Al LY 5 Tel Aviv-Ben Gurion to Los Angeles Boeing 777-200ER
12,051 Virgin Australia VA 2 Los Angeles to Sydney Boeing 777-300ER
11,897 China Eastern MU 588 New York-JFK to Shanghai-Pudong Boeing 777-300ER 
11,777 TAAG Angola Airlines DT 690 Luanda to Beijing Boeing 777-200ER
11,756 Philippine Airlines PR 103/113 Los Angeles to Manila "Boeing 777-300ER | Airbus A340-300"
11,698 Ethiopian Airlines ET 503 Toronto-Pearson to Addis Ababa Boeing 787-8
11,691 Pakistan International Airlines PK 783 Karachi to Toronto Boeing 777-200LR
11,652 Air France AF 406 Paris-Charles de Gaulle to Santiago de Chile Boeing 777-300ER / 777-200ER
11,567 Air China CA 995 Beijing to Houston-Intercontinental Boeing 777-300ER
11,477 Korean Air KE 33/35 Seoul-Incheon to Atlanta "Airbus A380-800
Boeing 747-400
Boeing 777-200ER
Boeing 777-300ER"
11,477 Lufthansa LH 510 Frankfurt to Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Boeing 747-8I
11,437 KLM KL 707 Amsterdam to Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Boeing 777-200ER
11,353 Garuda Indonesia GA 88 Jakarta to Amsterdam Boeing 777-300ER
11,335 Air New Zealand NZ 83 Vancouver to Auckland Boeing 777-200ER
11,272 Aeroméxico AM 57 Tokyo-Narita to Mexico City Boeing 787-8
11,147 Singapore Airlines SQ 1 San Francisco to Hong Kong "Airbus A380-800 | Boeing 777-300ER"
11,136 Aerolíneas Argentinas AR 1141 Rome to Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Airbus A340-200
11,136 Alitalia AZ 680 Rome-Fiumicino to Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Boeing 777-200ER
11,114 Asiana Airlines OZ 221 New York-JFK to Seoul-Incheon Boeing 777-200ER
11,111 British Airways BA 245 London-Heathrow to Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Boeing 777-200ER
11,058 Turkish Airlines TK 9 Istanbul to Los Angeles Boeing 777-300ER
10,868 All Nippon Airways NH 1 Washington-Dulles to Tokyo-Narita Boeing 777-300ER
10,854 Japan Airlines JL 5 New York to Tokyo Boeing 777-300ER
10,842 Hainan Airlines HU 482 Boston to Beijing Boeing 787-8
10,700 Iberia IB 6831 Madrid to Santiago de Chile Airbus A340-600
October 31st, 2014 at 8:53:56 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Fleastiff
I don't think the Dreamliner has the same bleed air setup but a pilot can always shut off anything if he really wants to. That is one advantage of the Dreamliner,,, there won't be a dollar oriented temptation to do things like that on a regular basis.


Dreamliner's don't use bleed air at all. They have an independent means of creating cabin pressure that weighs much less.

Right now, primarily a tiny percentage of aircraft fans care about equipment, probably dwarfed by people who care if there is one seat between them and the aisle or two seats. The fear of bleed air doesn't have to be based on cold science, but it has the potential to make the Dreamliner a hot property.



Ryanair investigation prompts call for new fuel guidelines Air accident investigators in Spain have called for new guidelines on fuel reserves in light of Ryanair’s tendency to carry only the minimum amount required by law.

Rightly or wrongly, that is an attention getting headline.
November 5th, 2014 at 1:41:04 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Hahn Air HR from China came in our office today. Was glad to see them.
What a wonderful airline, they really help us out regarding electronic tickets on small rinky dink airlines.
We dont sell a lot of actual HR flights.
Hahn air has reached out to just about every single small dink airline on the planet to offer their electronic ticketing services.
They literally have agreements with 100's of tiny airlines.
They came in to give us the udated list of tiny airlines they have agreements with. 22 new dink airlines on the list :-)
Alot of small airlines, its not possible to issue an electronic ticket - unless they have an agreement with Hahn Air.
Then we book the dink airline and validate the ticket on HR and issue electronically.
Makes life easy. Love Hahn Air HR
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
November 5th, 2014 at 3:04:10 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4944
Quote: terapined
Hahn Air HR from China came in our office today. Was glad to see them.
What a wonderful airline, they really help us out regarding electronic tickets on small rinky dink airlines.
We dont sell a lot of actual HR flights.
Hahn air has reached out to just about every single small dink airline on the planet to offer their electronic ticketing services.
They literally have agreements with 100's of tiny airlines.
They came in to give us the udated list of tiny airlines they have agreements with. 22 new dink airlines on the list :-)
Alot of small airlines, its not possible to issue an electronic ticket - unless they have an agreement with Hahn Air.
Then we book the dink airline and validate the ticket on HR and issue electronically.
Makes life easy. Love Hahn Air HR


I believe Hahn Air is a company I read about a year or two ago that only has two small airplanes but makes all their money off transaction fees from booking other airlines. Probably a lot better business than doing the actual flying.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
November 5th, 2014 at 6:51:40 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: DRich
Probably a lot better business than doing the actual flying.


In my local tiny airport there was a company that called itself a "virtual airline", which means they contracted everything out including the crew and the pilots. All they did was the booking and reselling the hotels and greens fees. They specialized in flying two times a week to city near a golf resort (I think it was Myrtle Beach, but I can't remember). They went bankrupt.
November 6th, 2014 at 1:23:10 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Pacomartin
They went bankrupt.
Perhaps not the best result but many airline crews are dispatched by Crew Services or other non-company services that supply pilots and stewardesses. Most ground transportation of airline crews is farmed out. Many airlines make money on the hotel booking and rental car booking and not on the actual flight.