New high capacity airplanes

Quote: Pacomartin

The problem with these tiny jets is there is no toilet. You could ask your executives to void their bladder and to wear Depends just in case, but they really don't want to do that.

Nor do their wives and secretaries each of whom might be aboard.

There are certain design elements that should never be ignored.

If you want a boondock plane you need wide doors for loading a moose or something. If you want executives, you have to remember they often travel with women some of whom actually are their wives. If you want to fly spare parts around to scattered factories you have to hire pilots who won't bust minimums.

Compromises in the design stage do not work.

Anybody here ever fly standby? Now that we
have a major airline pilot in the fam, we get
to fly for free on standby. I'm reading it's very
difficult now, most planes are full and you can
waste a couple days at the airport waiting. And
it might be worse coming back. No thanks.

Quote: Fleastiff

Nor do their wives and secretaries each of whom might be aboard.

There are certain design elements that should never be ignored.

In the initial enthusiasm for very light jets: single-pilot operation, seating 4-8 people, with a maximum take-off weight of under 10,000 pounds people envisioned thousands of them flown by businessmen who were also pilot enthusiasts, air taxis. When Eclipse started out they were conceptually talking about a million dollar jet. At the time small ranch houses in CA were frequently selling for a million dollars.

I believe that the air taxi business is still doing OK in London, where a group of four executives can easily turn most multi day trips into one day trips if they can control take offs, and land in small airports. Plus trips to France, Belgium and Jersey islands are greatly improved.

But issues like toilets have soured people to the air taxi business in the USA. The businessman pilot didn't go much beyond air enthusiasts. And the failing real estate market reduced the financing available. Plus the initial idea of million dollar jets went south pretty quick.

AFAIK fewer than 1000 of these VLJ's have been sold.

==========================
The so called light business jet which began in 1964 with the
Learjet 23 ( two crew and four to six passengers; max takeoff : 12,499 lb; 561 mph with 1,830 mile range )

These jets are more or less under $10m, with ranges a little less than transcontinental (1800-2300, and usually up to 6 passengers (although Switzerland is developing a 10 passenger model). I don't think there is a formal definition, but takeoff weight seems to be 10,000 - 18,000 pounds.

Usually to get true transcontinental range you have to add $5-$10 million to the price tag. The question is if eliminating windows gets you that 10% to 20% in range to make a light jet transcontinental and still under $10, would there be a market?

Seats shouls go to Revenue fares; non-Revs get disappointment now.

Quote: Pacomartin

The problem with these tiny jets is there is no toilet. You could ask your executives to void their bladder and to wear Depends just in case, but they really don't want to do that.

Because air travel just isn't undignified enough already?

First off, small companies who need business travel are likely to LEASE jets rather than buy. Because jets maintain their values over long periods of time it becomes much more attractive to lease a jet then spend the money outright and own the plane. When you buy a plane, you lock yourself into the plane and at some point, your business plan won't match what your jet provides.

If there is a need for a private jet that does transcon, they'll spend the money and lease the jet that fulfills their business requirements. The Bombardier Learjet 60XR can be yours for 13.3 million with a 2400nm range which will get you across the nation.

Washrooms are necessary. These are executives, flying in comfort and style. No one is going to drop a washroom so that they can make the extra 200 miles in range to get to BOS from LAX. They'll buy a plane that can meet their range, or they will lease if they can't afford it. And if they can't afford that, they'll pay for United First fares.

Quote: boymimbo

Washrooms are necessary. These are executives, flying in comfort and style. No one is going to drop a washroom so that they can make the extra 200 miles in range to get to BOS from LAX. They'll buy a plane that can meet their range, or they will lease if they can't afford it. And if they can't afford that, they'll pay for United First fares.

I think you missed my point.
Ny question is would you give up windows if light jets could get true transcontinental range?

Very Light Jets are the $2.15m - $3.6m and fly less than 1200 nm. These don't have restrooms
Light Jets are $6m-$9m and fly less than 2000nm. They have restrooms
Mid Size Jets like Bombardier Learjet 60XR are $13m-$19m and can fly 2400nm, or basically any domestic route.
(BOS-SFO is 2350 nm | SEA-MIA is 2365 nm and are the longest main routes)

I said that Very Light Jets without restrooms have not proven very popular, and less than 1000 have been sold in 7-8 years.

Despite the washroom issues the very light jet is not dead.

The Cirrus Vision SF50 is a single-engine, low-wing, seven-seat, very light jet aircraft under development by Cirrus Aircraft. It will be $2M and will fly for less than 2 hours with a range of about 540 nm. Max take-off weight 6,000 lbs.


Honda is developing a $4.5m (1 or 2 crew + 4 or 5 passengers) jet with a fully private aft lavatory and a flushing toilet. NBAA IFR range (4 occupants) 1180 nm. Max take-off weight 9,200 lbs.

I would have the seats torn out and have a comfortable
couch on each side, that could be used to sleep on
as well. This is so austere it looks like a prisoner transport
plane.

Quote: Evenbob

This is so austere it looks like a prisoner transport plane.

The cabin dimension of Honda are 4.80' H x 17.80' L x 5.00' W.
In comparison a queen size bed is 5' by 6'8"

You don't have a lot of space to work with. But yes, this Honda jet is pretty short on sex appeal for $4.5 million


This Italian turboprop is much nice for $7 million. Despite being a turboprop it is almost as fast as the Honda jet
Piaggio Cruise speed: 455 mph
Honda Cruise speed: 483 mph
The cabin dimension of Piaggio are 5.75' H x 14.60' L x 6.08' W.

Range Piaggio: 1,509 NM
Range Honda: 1,180 NM