Hate speech

I think Spock had a few quotes about humans being illogical. If you need consistency, look elsewhere. Maybe machines.

Quote: rxwine

What good is it to tell all gay people that you hate the sin, not the sinner? It's as helpful as telling them you don't like the color of their skin.

Let me throw this out there then. Why then do so many people, mostly on the left, say they are "against the war but support the troops?" How can you support someone but not their mission? Seems the same kind of thing.

Comments?

Quote: rxwine

I can understand your point, Face. There seems to be nothing directed at a person in hating the sin, but I still think you can get a bad result.

I'm not sure what the alternative is.

I mean, people have beliefs, that's all there is to it. You and I disagree completely on gun control, don't we? We may even vote about it in an attempt to make real something which will harm the other. Yet we can discuss it, make our beliefs be known, recognize the conflict, and move on. There's no animosity, we don't hate each other.

Same goes for FrG and I, and in that case, things are ever more intense. His beliefs state that I am going to burn for eternity. My beliefs state that he has sacrificed his entire life for a falsehood. Yet we can, again, discuss it, recognize the conflict, and move on as friends.

You can't avoid the conflicts in beliefs, and I would never want a world were you could. How boring would it be if everyone thought the same? As long as no one is promoting hate and/or violence, I wish that those who express a belief do so politely, and those targeted drop the self righteous indignation and accept that people feel differently than they.

Except for marriage after divorce. No one should accept that. Forget "sin", it's just masochistically idiotic ;)

Quote: AZDuffman

Let me throw this out there then. Why then do so many people, mostly on the left, say they are "against the war but support the troops?" How can you support someone but not their mission? Seems the same kind of thing.

Comments?

Because you can't, under any circumstances, express displeasure about our military?

I think our "Support the Troops" culture is bizarre. I sort of get the reason behind it, but I know a lot of troops that I would never associate myself with. In short, they're assholes, and it has nothing to do with any of their "sacrifices" for our "freedom"

But you can't be critical of them, ever. It's uncouth.

Back to your point, yeah. "Against the war but support the troops" I find no different than Robertson's comments or the "hate the sin..." cliche.

Got an event so can't answer much, maybe later.

I was wondering if you would bring up the gun issue, Face. In fact there are all kinds of things people disagree on. I'm fine with that.

The hate speech issue is much more specific. It goes only to fundamental equality, as far as I know.

So that humans aren't discriminated against ACROSS the board. Yes we can limit things with laws for everyone or no one in the broad context. The blacks, the Jews, the Asians, the native Americans aren't singled out. Now we can go back to arguing whether gays have their own category as that's a point of contention for some.

But I don't have time for anything else right now.

Still had another minute:

For example:


Singling out Native Americans and banning guns. Someone believes Native Americans can't own or use guns. That would be in the hate area laws.

Quote: rxwine

Got an event so can't answer much, maybe later.

I was wondering if you would bring up the gun issue, Face. In fact there are all kinds of things people disagree on. I'm fine with that.

Me? Guns? =p

Good point, and I suppose I gave a bad example for what you're describing.

But again, if we follow your belief that decrying homosexuality (for example) is hateful, don't you then just transfer the "hate" unto those who hold those beliefs?

How do you combat this type of "hate" without being hateful yourself? If you think a religious man that simply says "I am against that" is being hateful, how can you possibly combat his beliefs without also being hateful? He's singling out gays, you're singling out the religious.

Hopefully I made a better point this time =p

Quote:

How do you combat this type of "hate" without being hateful yourself?

I think it depends on what the issue is, and whether your group is the focus of different treatment. For instance another group is women. Women were second class citizens and in some cases not much more than property.

I will make up the most benign example I can think of. A woman living a century+ ago is not hated or mistreated by her husband. But she doesn't have the same rights as men.

Let's say she is a woman who is pretty smart. One night she is listening to her husband and his friend in a discussion. As she listens to the points made she not only realizes that she has good opinions too, but her husband and his friend really aren't very sharp fellows. Then she thinks how they are voting next week and she cannot, and it irritates her, and then it really irritates her as the days go on and makes her mad.

So she tries to explain to her husband her views, and how the situation is not right and he laughs in her face thinking she is upset over nothing. She has what she needs, he says. Now she is fuming, because he completely misses out on how serious she feels about this and makes light of it and dismisses her lack of equal rights.

Her husband does not hate her, but to her it is very important. She knows logically she is right, and he is dismissive of her having equal rights. She is mad like a hornet. She was not taken seriously, so the "mad" factor went up a notch, and will go up until she is taken seriously.

The suffrage movement is born, at least in one person.

Any group not receiving equal treatment for whatever reason may just be going from simmering to red hot, because that's what they have to do to get taken seriously and get things changed.

If Native Americans had real restricted liberties compared to other Americans, how many times can you be dismissed politely that you're not good enough or don't deserve it before you get mad as Hell?

Like I said, I'm really focusing on basic liberty for all, not just day to day disagreements.

Quote: AZDuffman

Let me throw this out there then. Why then do so many people, mostly on the left, say they are "against the war but support the troops?" How can you support someone but not their mission? Seems the same kind of thing.

Comments?

The mission is given to them by a commander. It's very easy to be able to support the troops and oppose the war. It's not the troops fault that they are in a war zone. I help run a charity that sends care packages to the troops in Afghanistan and I would like nothing more, all of us on the board, all of our volunteers, all of our financial supporters would like nothing more than to see our troops come home.