A new way to split NY State?

To back up Mission, I will put up a few posts here to get the traffic going.

A more unique idea to separate NY State into two "regions." Some might be already be saying "we already have one NY, why do we need another one?" But this is a different kind of proposal. "Upstate" would return to the old name of "New Amsterdam." "Downstate" would keep the New York moniker but become one of the nation's smallest and most dense states. About 2/3 of the state's residents live downstate, being Westchester, Rockland, Nassau, Suffolk, and the Five Boroughs.

NOTE: fellow current or former residents in the state but not from "downstate" will say that "Upstate" is Westchester to Albany counties and the "upstate" term ignores North Country, Western NY, and Southern Tier. They are all "upstate" to people who live downstate. Bronx is "upstate" to some people on Long Island.

Anyhow, this would not divide NY, which would require congress to approve. What it would do is have two regions that could go their own way on many things. I can say from experience that the interests of people upstate and downstate often differ. And I can say from even more experience that the way the state itself behaves can differ wildly, once almost getting me in serious dutch with my boss when he didn't get it. FWIW I did it my way, knowing I would be dealing with the state boys longer than I would with him. Later he came around. That is another story if anyone cares to hear it.

Personally, I like the idea. Not only less centralize government, but NY just has a huge divide. People in Buffalo would rather go to Toronto to "go to a big city" than they would go to NY. People on Long Island rarely leave because to get around NYC is such a hassle. NYC is its own world already. Some parts of North Country are so remote you swear they don't know the war is over.

Some things would have to stay united. The SUNY College system is too big for just upstate and downstate needs somewhere to house their felons. But if it works it could be the model to give Philly autonomy and leave the rest of PA free to boom without their problems.

Quote: AZDuffman

"Upstate" would return to the old name of "New Amsterdam." "Downstate" would keep the New York moniker but become one of the nation's smallest and most dense states.

More properly "upstate" was called "New Netherlands" while the city was called "New Amsterdam".


York was the name of the city in Britain, while Yorkshire was the name of the surrounding territory.


Nearly every country in the world has a "national city" which is a city, or a city and surrounding area which is treated on the same level as a province, state, or region.

We do have District of Columbia for the federal government, but I think clearly that NYC, Chicago, and Los Angeles should receive national city status.

Hudson County, NJ should clearly be included in the new National City of NY.

Frankly, there are alot of people here in Ontario who would love to separate from Toronto! That said, I couldn't see New York split into two states. It seems that the WT article was motivated on political reasons (Cuomo refusing to allow fracking because more republicans would enter the state). A great deal of the tax revenue that New York state receives comes from New York City which flows out to the rest of the state.

Quote: boymimbo

Frankly, there are alot of people here in Ontario who would love to separate from Toronto! That said, I couldn't see New York split into two states. It seems that the WT article was motivated on political reasons (Cuomo refusing to allow fracking because more republicans would enter the state). A great deal of the tax revenue that New York state receives comes from New York City which flows out to the rest of the state.

That was exactly my thought; metro NYC has got to be a donor just by density, and the rest of the state might or might not be a taker when it's all said and done. I think they're stuck in a bad marriage for many reasons, not just that one.

Quote: boymimbo

Frankly, there are alot of people here in Ontario who would love to separate from Toronto! That said, I couldn't see New York split into two states. It seems that the WT article was motivated on political reasons (Cuomo refusing to allow fracking because more republicans would enter the state). A great deal of the tax revenue that New York state receives comes from New York City which flows out to the rest of the state.

I've often wondered which way that flows. Do they give by density, or do they take by density? There's an awful lot of services needed to support millions of people, and a lot of wear and tear on infrastructure when it's used as hard as it has to be down there.

That being said, I. DO. NOT. CARE. There is no inconvenience I'd not suffer to wrest control from the Authoritarians. Hell, give me stewardship. I'll have upstate thriving by the time I'm 40.

Quote: Face

I've often wondered which way that flows. Do they give by density, or do they take by density? There's an awful lot of services needed to support millions of people, and a lot of wear and tear on infrastructure when it's used as hard as it has to be down there.

Upstate gets some business by running so many prisons as well as Albany being the Capital, otherwise the money probably flows from less dense to more dense. The public assistance in NYC alone is huge.

All you have to do is look at a less dense state and a more dense state. Look at the tax rates between the two. The more dense will almost always be higher. But in NY, the upstate region pays the same high state income tax rate as "the city and the island."

Quote: AZDuffman

Upstate gets some business by running so many prisons as well as Albany being the Capital, otherwise the money probably flows from less dense to more dense. The public assistance in NYC alone is huge.

All you have to do is look at a less dense state and a more dense state. Look at the tax rates between the two. The more dense will almost always be higher. But in NY, the upstate region pays the same high state income tax rate as "the city and the island."

As a Buffalo'er, I am happy to say that the money most definitely flows from downstate to upstate. The percentage of people on public assistance in Buffalo/Niagara Falls is staggering, and the state income tax is disproportionally collected from the wealthy downstaters.

Quote: DocZZZ

As a Buffalo'er, I am happy to say that the money most definitely flows from downstate to upstate. The percentage of people on public assistance in Buffalo/Niagara Falls is staggering, and the state income tax is disproportionally collected from the wealthy downstaters.

Here is a study that agrees with you.

Quote: Rockefeller Institute

If indeed it is better to give than receive, New York City and its suburbs can count their blessings by the billions of dollars. City residents and businesses paid about $4.1 billion more to Albany in taxes and fees than the state returned in spending for education, health care, transit and other services in 2009-10. For the nearby suburban counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester), it was $7.9 billion more in taxes than came back in spending, a new Rockefeller Institute study finds.

Where did the extra $12 billion go? North and west, up the Hudson River and along the Thruway corridor to Upstate regions that have struggled economically for much of the last half-century.

http://www.rockinst.org/observations/wardr/2011-12-giving_getting.aspx

Just give me 7 years of unfettered, dictatorial rule. I'll fix this place in a jiffy ;)

Quote: Face

Just give me 7 years of unfettered, dictatorial rule. I'll fix this place in a jiffy ;)

Implode the Tappan Zee, most of the rest will then take care of itself.......