wwii alternate posib

Quote: Pacomartin

Quote: Fleastiff

1941
December Japanese warplanes attack the Philippines catching MacArthur unaware despite reports of Pearl Harbor which he discounted as "minor" and two U.S. islands: Wake, ...

You seem to know your stuff. Perhaps you can answer a question for me.

I have seen these summary figures:
US military deaths 416,800 (includes Merchant Marine (9,500) and Coast Guard (1,900))
US civilian deaths due to military activity 1,700

The breakout by service is as follows:
Army 318,274,
Navy 62,614,
Marine Corps 24,511,
United States Coast Guard 1,917,
United States Merchant Marine 9,521.
Civilian dead were 1,704 American civilians interned: 1,536 by the Japanese, and 168 by Germany.

Have you ever seen a breakdown of these numbers by Europe/Pacific theater? I am finding that surprisingly difficult to find.

Interesting question. Most Marines in Pacific. Probably a very large majority of Navy as well given the ops all sea-borne. Army more split with North Africa and Western Europe/Italy their focus but Army took significant casualties in New Guinea, Philippines and Okinawa as well as other battles in Pacific including Alaska.

Would like to see more accurate breakout if you can find it.

Quote: Pacomartin

I have seen these summary figures:
US military deaths 416,800 (includes Merchant Marine (9,500) and Coast Guard (1,900))
US civilian deaths due to military activity 1,700

The breakout by service is as follows:
Army 318,274,
Navy 62,614,
Marine Corps 24,511,
United States Coast Guard 1,917,
United States Merchant Marine 9,521.
Civilian dead were 1,704 American civilians interned: 1,536 by the Japanese, and 168 by Germany.

Have you ever seen a breakdown of these numbers by Europe/Pacific theater? I am finding that surprisingly difficult to find.

I found a partial answer

Deaths in battle were 292,131.
Army 234,874, (83,400 other deaths)
Navy 36,950, (25,664 other deaths)
Marine Corps 19,733, (4,778 other deaths)
United States Coast Guard 574. (1,343 other deaths)

These losses were incurred during the period 12/1/41 until 12/31/46 including an additional 126 men in October 1941 when the USS Kearny and the USS Reuben James were attacked by U-Boats.

U.S. Combat Dead by Theater of war:
Europe–Atlantic 183,588
Army ground forces 141,088,
Army Air Forces 36,461,
Navy/Coast Guard 6,039;

Asia–Pacific 108,504
Army ground forces 41,592,
Army Air Forces 15,694,
Navy/Coast Guard 31,485,
Marine Corps 19,733;

Unidentified theaters
Army 39.

It would seem that the USMC was entirely dedicated to the Pacific Theater.

At least in battle deaths European theater dominated, but there are well over 100,000 deaths that are not considered "battle deaths".

Quote: Pacomartin

It would seem that the USMC was entirely dedicated to the Pacific Theater.
At least in battle deaths European theater dominated, but there are well over 100,000 deaths that are not considered "battle deaths".

"The Marine Corp is the police force of the Navy" philosophy prevailed. Marines had guard duty everywhere but the combat role was mainly amphibious assault and that meant mainly the Pacific where it was "learning grounds" for DDay.

Non battle deaths would be everything from training deaths to suicides and auto accidents. Driving on the left was new.

I wonder if a general labor battalion driving fuel cans across France in pursuit of Patton would be non battle deaths? Many died from snipers but many died from falling asleep at the wheel or simply going off the road at high speed because a truck ahead of them had missed a curve and gone over a cliff.

Quote: AZDuffman

(Note: yes, I find this stuff fascinating)

Even serious historians can't help but pursue alternate history. Especially when they discover how critical events could have so easily gone the other way.

The Pursuit of Goeben and Breslau is a good example. One different direction of these ships, and the Ottoman Empire might never have entered WWI on the side of the Central Powers. The balance of power in the Middle East (Western Asia) might have been radically different.

Quote: Fleastiff

Much heralded Marianas Turkey Shoot

This was the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

Quote: wikipedia

The Americans lost fewer than two dozen Hellcats in air to air combat, and garnered nearly 480 Japanese kills

I have a theory about this, as the explanation given is always this:

Quote: wikipedia

The Japanese were still flying the A6M Zero...The Japanese naval airmen were also largely inadequately trained. The Japanese preparation programs could not replace the quality aviators lost during the past two years of the Pacific Campaign. Flying against the well trained and often veteran U.S. aviators, it was a one sided contest.

Come on, the US planes and airmen were not *that* much better than the Japanese. Not enough to maintain a 20:1 kill ratio. 3:1 or 4:1, yeah, I could buy that, but not 20:1. My theory is that the US for the first time was using radar to direct their planes, something the Japanese were not able to match. It was probably top secret, and this cover story became the accepted history. Bear in mind I have never seen this acknowledged anywhere and this is just my theory.

It reminds me of the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot in the 1982 Lebanon War, where a similar ratio was obtained. The Israelis had all kinds of advances in technology too. But the Syrians had SAM sites and other Soviet help, enough it would seem to contest to some degree. Again, just my opinion, but it occurs to me that the AWACS planes tipped the scales here. Radar again. Fact is, the ability to put your guys from height right in on the tail of the other guys, is just pure murder.

Much like the cover story on British pilots eating carrots to see in the dark better during WW2?

Quote: TheCesspit

Much like the cover story on British pilots eating carrots to see in the dark better during WW2?

I think so.

Quote: odiousgambit

Come on, the US planes and airmen were not *that* much better than the Japanese. Not enough to maintain a 20:1 kill ratio. 3:1 or 4:1, yeah, I could buy that, but not 20:1. My theory is that the US for the first time was using radar to direct their planes, something the Japanese were not able to match. It was probably top secret, and this cover story became the accepted history. Bear in mind I have never seen this acknowledged anywhere and this is just my theory.

US Pilots did have superior training. By the end of the war the Japanese couldn't even train in basic navigation, pilots were told to just follow their formation leader. There was not enough fuel to give real training. Germany had a shortage of pilots. Chuck Yeager wrote about how they would bail out of the plane at the first sign of trouble, there were plenty of planes but not enough pilots.

As the war went on training got better and better. The USA sent successful pilots home to train new ones. The Axis were forced to keep theirs flying. So the Zero was a better plane, but eventually we found out it had weaknesses such as no self-sealing fuel tanks. Tactics kept improving. 20:1 might be high, but the USA clearly had a major advantage.

If Japan suffered 2 million military deaths where did they die? The allied deaths outside of China are considerably smaller. Did the Japanese die in China?

===================
3.8 million Chinese military casualties (1937–45; 3.2 million Nationalist/-allied and 580,000 Communist),
354,523 United States casualties (106,207 killed, 248,316 wounded and missing),
52,000 British casualties including 12,000 deaths in captivity,
86,838 British Indian casualties (this casualty figure is for all theatres of World War Two that Indian troops fought in)
17,501 Australian casualties,
57,000 casualties from the Philippine Commonwealth,
9,400 Dutch casualties including 8,500 who died in captivity (likely not including colonial forces),
578 New Zealander casualties,
63,225 Soviet casualties (20,797 killed and missing, 42,428 wounded and sick),
5000 French military casualties in Indochina,
300 Mongolian casualties
Mexican deaths

Malaria was the most important health hazard encountered by U.S. troops in the South Pacific during World War II, where about 500,000 men were infected.[11]

Quote: AZDuffman

20:1 might be high, but the USA clearly had a major advantage.

You give a good counter-argument, and have all the history books on your side, but I just don't buy 20:1.

Maybe it's because in the South we still feel chagrined over that early Civil War claim that one Reb could whip 10 Yankees [g].