Original Sin?

I do remember discussing all of these things with you and you just giving the same old non responses like this one. If the universe had been here for eternity that the process of entropy would already have completely caused everything to dissipate into nothingness, after all it would have had an infinite amount of time for it to have happened. Also we wouldn't have things like the Grand Canyon because the rivers would already have had an infinite time to erode everything completely. Why do I have to continue to make these obvious points to you and as you say run your position into the ground over and over again. Open your eyes and realize that you are wrong. Or instead of just saying we have talked about this before come up with something meaningful to say or give me your argument for the non-existence of god, evidence of it, or just something other than your normal crap.

Quote: FrGamble

or just something other than your normal crap.

Sorry, all I have is my normal crap,
just like you have your normal
Vatican crap. I'm not discussing
this again, you have nothing new
to add. I'm more interested in what
the pope said Sunday:

"At certain times, I have also encountered moments of darkness in my faith and that faith decreased a lot, but with a little bit of time we rediscover it." https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-admits-darkness-own-faith-204403995.html

So even the pope has to work at
keeping his faith intact, it's built
on such shaky ground. That's what
happens when the thing you believe
in doesn't really exist.

Yes, this is a much better subject thank you for changing it.

I love that quote from the Pope and have experienced similar moments as well. I wish I could say faith is easy, I wish I could say life is easy. However, life is a challenging adventure. Wouldn't you agree? Haven't there been times your atheism has been challenged? If it hasn't then you are simply not thinking deeply enough. Suffering and doubt are impossible to avoid in this world, yet we as human beings never give up and we rise up and have our faith and hope restored. I don't think it has anything to do with God's existence but has everything to do with the problems of the world we live in.

Quote: FrGamble

I love that quote from the Pope and have experienced similar moments as well.

You would have to, you believe in
something that doesn't exist. If
there was a god, it seems like he
would help his followers by becoming
more real to them every day. But
he doesn't because there is no god.

Quote:

Haven't there been times your atheism has been challenged?

No more so than my beliefs about any of
the gods has been challenged. Thor, Zeus,
Neptune, Athena, Yahweh, Apollo. Nothing
has shown up that makes me believe any
of them are real. That you choose to pick
one and pretend he exists is the millstone
around your neck, not mine.

You give too much weight to atheism. It's
right up there with not believing there are
wild tomato plants growing on the moon.
It's not something you think about unless
somebody brings it up. We don't lie in
bed pondering atheism. There's nothing
there to think about.

If I had to think about gods, I'd rather think
about Thor and his hammer. That's pretty
cool. Your god 'saves' people, whatever that
means. Pretty wimpy for a god..

Quote: Evenbob

If there was a god, it seems like he
would help his followers by becoming
more real to them every day.

He does, but it is just some days are tougher than others and other days I chose things that take me away from God not God going away from me.

Quote:

You give too much weight to atheism.

I give no intellectual or logical weight to atheism.

Quote:

It's right up there with not believing there are
wild tomato plants growing on the moon.

Yes, I agree that atheism is similar.

Quote:

It's not something you think about unless
somebody brings it up. We don't lie in
bed pondering atheism. There's nothing
there to think about.

There is so much to think about! I don't understand why you don't spend more time thinking about the ultimate beginnings of the universe or our own individual ends. Hopefully, you at least stay up some nights thinking about how amazing the stars are or the intricacies of butterfly wings, or the amazing small difference in the molecular structure of polymers of glucose that have such an impact on its nature, or just the idea of atoms. There is so much to think about sometimes it makes my head spin.

Quote:

If I had to think about gods, I'd rather think
about Thor and his hammer. That's pretty
cool. Your god 'saves' people, whatever that
means. Pretty wimpy for a god..

So you'd rather a cool guy with a big hammer than a simple carpenter friend who loves you?

Quote: FrGamble

He does, but it is just some days are tougher than others and other days I chose things that take me away from God not God going away from me.

That shows me how nonexistent god
is. He's not like gravity, you can't
ignore gravity, or lose faith in it.
But there is no god, so you constantly
have to bolster your faith because
there is nothing outside your mind
to keep your faith going.

Quote:

There is so much to think about! I don't understand why you don't spend more time thinking about the ultimate beginnings of the universe or our own individual ends.

The universe (and you) have been here
forever in one form or another, what's
there to think about. We have no 'ends',
we're eternal beings. You believe that
also, only you put heaven and hell rules
on it. You choose to play a game with it,
where you are at the center of everything.
It helps you while away the time. It
entertains you.

Quote: Evenbob

That shows me how nonexistent god
is. He's not like gravity, you can't
ignore gravity, or lose faith in it.

True God is not like gravity, He is more like a loving friend. Have you ever been in a relationship with someone who you doubted because you misinterpreted or didn't understand their actions or you did something to them? Do you think because your relationship goes up and down it is not real or even more crazy that the person you are in that relationship is not real?

Quote:

The universe (and you) have been here
forever in one form or another, what's
there to think about.

If you thought about this statement, the one you said above, or just about anything you seem to be writing these days you would see that it doesn't make sense, is illogical, or in this case above it is impossible.

Quote: FrGamble

you would see that it doesn't make sense, is illogical, or in this case above it is impossible.

Not any more crazy than you thinking
we live forever in heaven or hell. What's
the difference.

I thought I would take advantage of Evenbob's rare suspension to point out this response does not follow from our conversation. The fact that we will live forever, something be actually agrees with, doesn't mean that we did not have a beginning, which apparently he denies. All material contingent beings have a cause. The universe has a cause. The spiritual non-confidential being we call God does not have a cause but is truly infinite and eternal, not just in the future, but in the past as well. Without this "first cause" nothing else could exist.

Quote: FrGamble

I thought I would take advantage of Evenbob's rare suspension to point out this response does not follow from our conversation. The fact that we will live forever, something be actually agrees with, doesn't mean that we did not have a beginning, which apparently he denies. All material contingent beings have a cause. The universe has a cause. The spiritual non-confidential being we call God does not have a cause but is truly infinite and eternal, not just in the future, but in the past as well. Without this "first cause" nothing else could exist.

That we "will live forever" is not an actual fact. We do not know if anyone who has lived and died does, in fact, continue to exist in some fashion, and we may never know. I am aware that many people believe, fervently, with their very hearts, avidly and faithfully, that there is life after death. But there is no evidence of that--only belief. And seven billion people believing something doesn't add one iota of truth to it.

The causation argument is fallacious and was old and tired when Thomas Aquinas used it. Logical regression is a flawed form of analysis. The universe does have a cause, but that cause is probably simply part of its physical nature and is actually explained by the big bang theory. Note that it is a theory, which makes it more intellectually honest than Christianity's unjustified absolute certainty.

I have a simple metric for when I should or should not believe something. I call it my Law of Inverse Beliefs. It states that the better it makes me feel to believe something, the more skeptical I should be of that belief. Religion is very, very tempting because of these sad truths about the human condition:

1. Death is final.
2. The world is not fair.
3. The events that affect our lives, good and bad, are random and arbitrary.

Now, to admit these things is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING to most people. That's why religion was invented--to help people deny those realities. It simply feels better to lie to yourself than to admit the awful truth--that there is no white-bearded guy sitting on a cloud, making a list, checking it twice, seeing who's naughty and nice.

But you know what? That realization, once I had the courage to make it, has made me feel much better about life. It's a very, very, very rare thing, and our presence here on earth as sentient beings is a cosmic accident. I value my life, and those of everyone around me*, that much more when I realize how fleeting, ephemeral, and unique it all is. *except Trumpers, of course