Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

I liked the Church Lady. Or rather the satire of religion Dana Carvey made with her.

But I'm surprised you liked it. Maybe you didn't remember the Church Lady sketches in SNL.

The type of religion or ideology that Dana Carvey was making fun of in those sketches is very appropriate.

Quote: Dalex64

This is more of a simple question, but I'm not going to open that thread again.

So you pray, you receive guidance, you launch military action against two countries. (Pres Bush)

How does anyone know, including yourself, if god was really telling you this is what he wants you to do?

I think in this case it is pretty clear. God didn't give us just feelings or hunches to go on, but He gave us a brain to use our reason and a conscience to guide us. The moral tradition from the Church on war is pretty clear and the military action in Iraq did not mean nearly any of the requirements for military action. No matter what you feel you should do, you should really look at the evidence, use your brain, and follow a conscience formed by the teachings of Christ and the Church (if you are Catholic that is). Before we are too hard on President Bush we should all realize that you let our feelings dictate many of our decisions, some of which go against scientific evidence and reason. Just look at abortion, capital punishment, nuclear weapons, denial of climate change, to name just a few.

Quote: FrGamble

I think in this case it is pretty clear. God didn't give us just feelings or hunches to go on, but He gave us a brain to use our reason and a conscience to guide us. The moral tradition from the Church on war is pretty clear and the military action in Iraq did not mean nearly any of the requirements for military action. No matter what you feel you should do, you should really look at the evidence, use your brain, and follow a conscience formed by the teachings of Christ and the Church (if you are Catholic that is). Before we are too hard on President Bush we should all realize that you let our feelings dictate many of our decisions, some of which go against scientific evidence and reason. Just look at abortion, capital punishment, nuclear weapons, denial of climate change, to name just a few.

Bush said he prayed, and god answered him. Do people need to consult with church authorities after they pray? Does the church need to tell him that he didn't hear god? And again, how would they know that he didn't? Even if it was war, it might be part of god's plan. What if even in contradiction to current beliefs, god really did tell him to do it?

You tell people to pray, and open their hearts and minds to hear the answers. He's pretty sure he did that. You know very well that there is no test to know if you are right, and even in the collective prayers and deliberations among the highest in church leadership, later some of their decisions have been labeled as wrong.

Quote: Dalex64

Bush said he prayed, and god answered him. Do people need to consult with church authorities after they pray? Does the church need to tell him that he didn't hear god? And again, how would they know that he didn't? Even if it was war, it might be part of god's plan. What if even in contradiction to current beliefs, god really did tell him to do it?

You tell people to pray, and open their hearts and minds to hear the answers. He's pretty sure he did that. You know very well that there is no test to know if you are right, and even in the collective prayers and deliberations among the highest in church leadership, later some of their decisions have been labeled as wrong.

If God tells you to go out and kick puppies I can be 100% sure that this is not God. We can be easily deceived and that is why God established a Church with the moral authority based on Divine Revelation and philosophical truth, reason, logic, and evidence. There is also the gift of spiritual direction. I don't know if Bush spoke to his pastor or maybe a good spiritual friend to see what he or she thought. This is an important spiritual practice. If we don't talk about what is coming up in our prayer with someone we can be easily confused. I bet his brother Jeb could have told him about the conditions for a "just war" according to St. Thomas Aquinas and it might have saved us all a huge problem. There is a test, it is called Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. If your prayer goes against one of these three things you can be sure you are not hearing the promptings of God or are misunderstanding them.

Quote: Dalex64

You tell people to pray, and open their hearts and minds to hear the answers. He's pretty sure he did that. You know very well that there is no test to know if you are right, .

That's why it's so insane to say god
told you to do anything. If it's true
that beings from the supernatural
talk to us and give us instructions
(they don't), then how would you
even know it was god? You wouldn't.

So as usual, god is at the bottom of
every list as a reason for something
in science, and as a source to take
advice from. Flip a coin, it's just as
good as doing what a voice in your
head tells you to do. Think of the
world problems that would solve.

Quote: FrGamble

If God tells you to go out and kick puppies I can be 100% sure that this is not God. We can be easily deceived and that is why God established a Church with the moral authority based on Divine Revelation and philosophical truth, reason, logic, and evidence. There is also the gift of spiritual direction. I don't know if Bush spoke to his pastor or maybe a good spiritual friend to see what he or she thought. This is an important spiritual practice. If we don't talk about what is coming up in our prayer with someone we can be easily confused. I bet his brother Jeb could have told him about the conditions for a "just war" according to St. Thomas Aquinas and it might have saved us all a huge problem. There is a test, it is called Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. If your prayer goes against one of these three things you can be sure you are not hearing the promptings of God or are misunderstanding them.

Those three things, scripture, tradition, magesterium, are based on believing that god told things to people. I don't know if Bush talked to someone else or if he didn't. If he did, do you think they told him something other than you are the president and follow your conscience?

Quote: FrGamble

The type of religion or ideology that Dana Carvey was making fun of in those sketches is very appropriate.

Yours?

Really, you may think the differences between the splinters in your faith are as big as the universe, but to an outside observer it takes a scanning tunneling microscope to even see them. To quote Bart Simpson "It's all Christianity, people! The small, stupid differences are nothing next to the big, stupid similarities."

I mean, you do think Satan is a real entity capable of independent action, don't you?

Quote: Nareed

I mean, you do think Satan is a real entity capable of independent action, don't you?

Of course, the evidence is overwhelming.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course, the evidence is overwhelming.

Then why is it funny if I suggest that instead of hearing God/Jesus/The Other Guy, Bush the younger heard "Could it be....SATAN?"

Considering the death, bloodshed, hardship, destruction, waste, expenditures, wounded, maimed, and regional instability which led to even more death, destruction, hardship, maimed and wounded, could it not have been Satan's doing? According to your theology?

Quote: FrGamble

Of course, the evidence is overwhelming.

The 'evidence' for you of god and
Satan is always 'overwhelming'.
I'm glad the rest of us have evidence
standards higher than they needed
in the 13th century, obviously your
church does not.