Original Sin?

Do you think if you just keep saying nonsense it will eventually be true?
A supernatural being creating the material universe is not preposterous it is necessary. Do you think the material universe created itself? You are being illogical. Please explain why God is illogical and please explain why you don't understand that it is precisely necessary that something spiritual, eternal, and omnipotent created the material contingent universe?

Quote: FrGamble

explain why you don't understand that it is precisely necessary that something spiritual, eternal, and omnipotent created the material contingent universe?

It's only necessary if you believe your religion
is true. The universe has been here forever,
it was never 'created'. Please explain why you
cannot understand this concept. The galaxies
are not the 'universe', they are in the infinite
universe. We understand very little of this
process, just be patient. No need to run around
like a madman blaming everything on a non
existent god.

It is true not because of any religion, it is true because of reason and logic. I don't understand how the universe, meaning EVERYTHING, was not created because it cannot create itself and doesn't have its reason for being in itself (meaning it is not necessary). To help here just think of yourself, you did not create yourself, you were dependent on your parents, who dependent on their parents, etc. Etc. You can't keep going back for eternity, there had to be a beginning. Do you get it now?
Also we do understand a lot right now. We know for example the universe is expanding, an impossibility in an eternal universe that follows physical laws.
I have been very patient with you and will continue to be.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't understand how the universe, meaning EVERYTHING, was not created because it cannot create itself .

You don't understand because your hung up
and fixated on the word 'creation'. It's boxed
you in to a specific way of thought. I completely
understand how the universe has been here
forever, it makes perfect sense. The Hindu's
and Buddhists certainly think it makes sense.

Your religion must have a creator for it to be
viable. You must have original sin and a reward
and punishment system. So you, meaning
you personally, take those narrow parameters
and cram everything into them. Even pound them
in with a hammer when they don't fit.

I am under no such constraints, I can see things as
they really are. But don't worry about it, time is
on your side. You have forever to figure it out,
that's how long you've been and will be here. In
one form or another..

What does my religion have to do with this very simple truth that God exists? Why is creation so important for their to be sin, reward, and punishment. The Eastern religions you mentioned talk about sin, reward, and punishment and you think they believe in an eternal universe.
I also have to chuckle a little when you say I'm cramming something in that doesn't make sense because of narrow parameters. It is you my friend that are pushing an idea that goes against reason, logic, common sense, and science. If you completely understand how the universe has been here forever please share it.

Given the assumption that a supernatural entity was required to create all of existence, there is no reason to believe (no chain of evidence to follow) that any of the gods people believe in now, or have ever believed in, are one and the same with that entity.

There are a whole lot of "therefores" you can make from that.

There is no clinging to desperation on my part or an overreaching desire of mine to force that statement to be true.

Dalex it is not an assumption that a spiritual, eternal, omnipotent entity is required to create all of existence. However, I do agree with you that this alone is no reason to believe that any specific understanding of who or what this entity is true. That is a different question. The first question though is there a God?
The answer is yes. Then the question is can we know anything about this God, does it matter, is it the Judeo-Christian God, the God of Islam, or Mormons? I find that question interesting and full of lots of helpful discussion as it effects our worldview, our anthropology, and how we live our lives. The question of atheism is not so interesting because it is based on nothing and is simply not true.

Quote: FrGamble

Dalex it is not an assumption that a spiritual, eternal, omnipotent entity is required to create all of existence.

Of course not. given we've examined a sample of a few trillion universes and measured the properties of the spiritual entity responsible for each one...

Oh, wait. We haven't done that.

Quote: FrGamble

What does my religion have to do with this

Only everything. Your religion told you
what god was and ever since then you've
been defining him within that box, the
box your religion made.

I grew up under no such handicap. My
parents thankfully let me make up my
own mind. So when I started looking for
god in my 20's, I found a big fat nothing.
And the more I questioned and looked,
the more 'nothing' I found.

You see god in everything because you
were taught to, and want to. I see this
constantly in my wife's rabidly Baptist
family. They work at putting their made-
up god in everything they do. It's a
classic example of a self perpetuating
myth. It's what your Church did when
they burned women at the stake for
being witches. They created the myth,
and perpetuated the thing by constantly
feeding it. You can come to believe any
ridiculous lie if enough people around
you constantly feed it.

My sister in law believes Jesus turns red
lights into green lights for her and finds
her good parking spots at the mall. To
me she's among those with a functioning
mental illness, to others she's just 'religious'.

Bob, it sounds like we went in opposite directions in our 20's. I left God and you searched for Him, in fact if I remember right you became a Christian for a time. Look I know you want to say that everything I believe was force fed to me and I'm a brainless zombie following a mean Church. This lets you ignore what I'm saying and allows you to switch the topic when you know you are wrong. I assure you that I am a free and critical thinker and that I don't brainlessly follow what people tell me like you do with so many historical myths about the Church.

I'd also just like to point out another logical fallacy in your argument about God's existence. It seems like you are saying because you went searching for God and found nothing this is your evidence or proof that there is no God. How or why do you think your failure to find God means there is no God? Putting aside the egotistical problems with this idea and the logical problems - I wonder if it ever occurred to you that you might have not have had the best examples in your life, or that you didn't have the right person or group to help you, or perhaps your upbringing disposed you more to reject the idea of God than having a truly open mind and heart? Just wondering...