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Original Sin?
| February 2nd, 2018 at 11:38:46 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | I'm not quite sure I completely follow you. However, I don't think there is a rational way for a non-supernatural explanation for the origin of all creation to be possible. The word super-natural means above or beyond nature. If the explanation for existence is found in nature it will be susceptible to the same problems that lead us to seek for a creator outside of nature. Any natural thing is contingent in that it depends on something else for its being and existence. So if a natural thing was responsible for everything else then we would be able to rightly ask, "What created the material thing that created all the other material things?" This would send us into the impossibility of an infinite regress. Something supernatural, being not material, has the possibility of not having or needing a beginning. The source or foundation for all that exists must have its own reason for existence in itself, it must be reality itself. It alone is non-contingent and it cannot be asked what came before or who was its cause because it is outside of time and space and it is the source of all being. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 11:44:55 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
The question then is: how sad are you in this context? Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 11:57:30 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
What's really frightening is, you and others think your supernatural explanation for so many things is rational. Creation, virgin birth, walking on water, turning water into wine, rising from the dead. These completely irrational and unproveable ideas make perfect sense to you. Taken out of the context of your religion, every one of them is laughably hilarious to an outsider. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 2:30:01 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
Just because you can't or won't understand it, or the explanations might not jive with our CURRENT understanding of science, doesn't mean that it isn't possible. We don't understand in any way how a supernatural being has been around forever, yet you have no problem believing that it is true. Your assertion is "the universe is contingent therefore there must be only and exactly one non-contingent being and that is god" is totally bunk driven by your own desire. I again refer you to my assertion that there is no way for you to link the god you believe in with the creation of the universe, much less the creation of all existence. As for the infinite regess BS argument, what about a finite regress? again, why just ONE? why can't there be MULTIPLE non-contingent beings that have existed for all time? Why can't there have been a series of a few entities created one after the other but first by the REAL first god? Just because it doesn't fit your definition of what 'all powerful' means doesn't mean it can't be true. So yes, I cast your beliefs as hope and desire, and the disturbing bit is your unwillingness to consider any other possibility that doesn't fit within your inflexible model. After all, if your god wasn't FIRST and ONLY, what is your god? "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 2:45:51 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
That's it in a nutshell. The only link they think they have is some BS faulty logic that's laughable at best. Every path not only points to the fact that god does not exist, but that god cannot exist. Cannot. Exist.
'Bunk driven', that's perfect. I'm stealing that and pretending I made it up. Bunk driven covers so much ground with just two words.. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 2:48:20 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Even the Bible assumes the existence of other gods. My guess is the Hebrews and their ancestors quite naturally, like almost everyone else in the world, believed in multiple gods. At some point, or at some interval more likely, the belief changed to a single god, perhaps coexisting with the other gods of other faiths. Ergo the warnings not to have other gods before Jehovah and such. This is hardly the only time. early Roman Christians explained away the Roman Pantheon they believed in as "demons." Akhenaten had to explain away a truckload of Egyptian gods as "manifestations" of the "true" god Aten. Ideas don't stand still. Languages don't stand still. Technology doesn't stand still. Politics doesn't stand still. Philosophy doesn't stand still. what makes anyone think religion can stand still? Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 3:37:45 PM permalink | |
| petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | That's all the dupes can afford? The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 6:26:49 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I love your hope and faith in science, it puts my faith in God to shame. You seem to think that eventually science will discover all these amazing things and even find a way to examine, test, and observe non-contingent supernatural spiritual beings. You willingness to consider any other possibility no matter how crazy it might seem to fit into a model you want is based on a fervent desire I cannot match.
My friend we barely understand how electricity works and we have no problem understanding how it exists and helps us. I hate to break it to you but I, nor you, nor anyone else will ever understand how a supernatural being is eternal. If you need to completely understand something to believe it you will never believe in God nor will you believe in a vast amount of things like high level math.
I don't remember saying that there must be only and exactly one non-contingent being. I do, based on Ockham's Razor and many other arguments and thoughts happen to think there is one being that we commonly call God. However I would not assert that there must be necessarily only and exactly one.
There is something called Revelation but that does take faith.
Slow your roll Dalex. I again don't remember saying all of the things you mentioned above can't be true. It obviously is complicated but I do think there are many ways you can argue against these possibilities you bring up. See the fun you can have when you give up the silly notion of atheism. There is clearly a God and as you point out maybe many non-contingent beings. I do want to also point out that you call infinite regress a BS argument but you never contradict it even in your outlandish scenarios. That is because it you know as well as I do that there cannot be an actual infinite regress. So it isn't BS I just want to make sure you know that because the impressionable posters like Evenbob will take you saying that along with your good line "bunk driven" and think you have found a way around the infinite regress argument. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 6:54:38 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
We we also never figure out how Santa gets his fat ass down the chimney with that big bag of toys. So many mysteries we'll never solve.. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| February 2nd, 2018 at 8:06:53 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
You really are never very helpful in these discussions, do you know that? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |