Original Sin?

Quote: Dalex64

Re-read your own arguments to see argument from incredulity. You can't imagine how any rational logical person won't reach the same conclusion as you about the existence of god. You imagine how awful and filled with despair our lives would be without god, therefore it can't be correct.

Remember I have been debating mostly with Evenbob. I have been incredulous that a rational logical person won't at least acknowledge evidence and a logical argument. Whether or not we come to the same conclusions I am overjoyed that a rational logical person at least acknowledges the argument. I know how awful and filled with despair our lives are without God, but I also know that there are a million different things we can find in this world that keep us from feeling that awfulness and despair. Many people who do not acknowledge or think often of God live very happy and fulfilled lives.

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Yes, I believe we can not know about god, unless the situation changes. Setting aside the lack of a link between the beliefs developed by people and the creator of all existence, there is no way to differentiate, or validate, any set of beliefs against any other. Since there is no way to do that, there also is no way to know who has the right ideas and who doesn't. Since we can't do that, we can't know anything about god except by dumb luck, and there is also no way to know if anyone even has one single thing right.

Is there really no way to validate any set of beliefs against any other? I feel like we can make distinctions and determine certain conceptions about God or religious teachings are wrong.

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If you want to contemplate and pray, individually and collectively, and say your thoughts are guided by god, feel free. I say you are just building a human consensus with nothing divine happening at all.

Thank you. I do feel that something like Christianity and its history does point to something divine happening. I feel it and know there is something much greater than just myself or the community at work, but I acknowledge that I can't really prove that to you.

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If you want to then point at those ideas and say, look how good they are for society, look at the big questions they answer, therefore god is real and we are correct - that is circular logic.

I think you might be correct if the argument was that the benefit for society proves God is real. Instead it is yet another piece of evidence that we can examine and wonder about. Why are these teachings so meaningful to us, why do they continue to guide us, why do we get in so much trouble when they are broken or ignored? This points to a divine inspiration but does not prove it.

Quote: FrGamble

You have faith in them and so do I.

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Religious faith and faith that my
garbage man will pick up on
time are not the same thing.

Apparently all you need is a big fat pile of nothing,

Just because I don't see a god anywhere
doesn't mean I have nothing. God people
love extremes, there's no middle of the
road for you. Everything for you is in blatant
black or white. The truth is, everything is
very much a light grey, but it's tough to use
that as a religious selling point. God will reward
you FOREVER, the devil will punish you FOREVER,
better act TODAY!!! Preachers and used car
salesman, they both have the same sales pitch.

I see the beauty of grey and realize that life is not black and white. God and the Church see that as well and are always merciful and compassionate with others. You have told me on multiple occasions that atheism is nothing and I have agreed with you. Now do you have something or evidence to support your claim and belief?

Quote: FrGamble

and realize that life is not black and white. God and the Church see that as well

No it doesn't. The Christian church
is all black and white. Look at their
take on the Gay issue. Doesn't
matter if you were born that way
and can't help it, you better not
be engaging in any Gay acts or you
will not be accepted in the Church.
What's grey about that.

As usual you are totally wrong. In everything the Church is merciful and compassionate. The Church accepts anyone, including those who are homosexual and always welcomes sinners, that is the main message.

Quote: FrGamble

The Church accepts anyone, including those who are homosexual

So the Church now accepts practicing
Gay's, those that are sexually active
with each other? Since when.

From the catechism:

"Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

Looks pretty black and white to me..

You know if I thought you actually cared about homosexuals and the Church teaching for a second I would engage you about how wrong you are and that the Church accepts everyone, but you don't. When you know you have lost or are shown to be wrong you either stop posting, block someone or a thread, or change the subject and attempt to derail.

Quote: FrGamble

You know if I thought you actually cared about homosexuals

What do they have to do with this, we
already discussed that to death 2 years
ago. My point is the black and white
issue, and how you say the Church is
all grey area and how god and the Church
love grey areas.

Here's more black and white, divorce. Is
that a grey area for the Church or do they
have a black and white stand on the issue.
How about letting women into the priesthood,
that's an extremely black and white issue.
Let's talk masturbation, lots of leeway there,
nope. As black and white as you can get.

Face it, the Church has no grey areas, it's about
rigidness and rules, about living your life a
certain way or god will screw you. If there was
a god, which there isn't.

I think rigidity is not about laws or rules, which everyone has, but by how they are enforced. The Church loves all, forgives all, understands the struggles and is compassionate to all. It is in this sense that they celebrate the beauty of grey.

Quote: FrGamble

The Church loves all, forgives all, understands the struggles and is compassionate to all.

If you follow their rigid rules, sure. If
you play ball they love you. Step
outside the rigidity and it's a different
story. Priests wear rose colored contacts
24/7, then wear rose colored glasses
all day so they see the Church in the
best light possible.

Us outsiders see it as a private club, and
if you're a member, you give the club
permission to make your life miserable.