Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

This is questioning the pieces this museum
has, not the originals. That's how it reads to
me.

Thanks, I'm trying to find more from something I read that says they were created in medieval times? Probably tmi off the internet.

Quote: FrGamble

Before the fall they walked with God as a friend and loving parent, after the fall they cover themselves and hide from Him. Why did they hide? For the first time they were scared of God, they no longer saw Him as a loving Father who unconditionally loved them or else they wouldn't have hid.

This original sin is supposedly what
Jesus died to save you from. What
did Jesus himself say about original
sin and him being the savior. Please
be specific.

Not quite sure exactly what you are asking but yes Jesus died to save us from all sin, including Original Sin.

The first thing that jumps to my mind is John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not perish but may have eternal life."

Quote: FrGamble

Not quite sure exactly what you are asking but yes Jesus died to save us from all sin, including Original Sin.

What did Jesus say about original sin
and him being the savior. I already
know the answer. Jesus didn't
know he was the messiah or the
savior, he had no idea. It was a myth
made up about him after he was dead
for years. That little tidbit is never
discussed by Xtions.

Don't keep me in suspense, I don't have the whole NT memorized. You think Jesus didn't know He was the Messiah or Savior of the world? Interesting. I'd love to hear your argument. By the way this is discussed by Christians and has been for a little over 2,000 years now. Do you think you are the first person to make this claim?

Quote: FrGamble

Don't keep me in suspense,

"Most independent historical Jesus scholars dismiss the idea that Jesus believed he was the Messiah."

It was invented in the decades after
he died. He had no idea he was here
to save anybody from sin, whatever
that is.

A good real for the non-believer

In the end, there are plenty of reasons to suspect the gospel writings and some of Paul's writings are fabrications and myths. Certainly, the lack of historical record from an outside perspective (ie, not influenced by a Christian of the day) is dubious at best.

I have no doubt that Jesus existed. The major points in the Gospels, including death and the Resurrection to me are matters of faith, and faith alone. I think most historians agree the Jesus existed.

I apologize to FrGamble for this pessimistic viewpoint. It would be wonderful if some Egyptian or Greek pagans visiting Israel at the time of Jesus' life had written down something on a scroll that confirmed the miracles, life and death events of Jesus. But they are absent.

I think it is a very plausible argument to say that the Gospels were written over time and amended considerably to push the faith. At least equally as plausible as saying the Gospels are absolutely true.

And ya, I'm Christian.

Quote:

I think it is a very plausible argument to say that the Gospels were written over time and amended considerably to push the faith.

Amended is putting it mildly. Much of
it was made up entirely and embellished
to a ridiculous degree.

Quote: boymimbo

I apologize to FrGamble for this pessimistic viewpoint.

Good god why. He didn't write it,
he had nothing to do with it. He's
just another Vatican parrot, squawking
what he's been told to say. You don't
owe him anything.

Quote: boymimbo

I apologize to FrGamble for this pessimistic viewpoint. It would be wonderful if some Egyptian or Greek pagans visiting Israel at the time of Jesus' life had written down something on a scroll that confirmed the miracles, life and death events of Jesus. But they are absent.

I think it is a very plausible argument to say that the Gospels were written over time and amended considerably to push the faith. At least equally as plausible as saying the Gospels are absolutely true.

And ya, I'm Christian.

I don't know if it is pessimism or just realist. I too wish there was a whole bunch more. Of course we have more corroborating Jesus and the Gospels then we have for any ancient person or writing of that time but it is always good to have more.

Then it strikes me that no matter what it wouldn't convince people who have made up their minds to not believe. Some have good reasons, some have been brainwashed, and others not so good reasons to not believe. Heck, some close their minds off to the possibility of God's existence which takes a lot of work and mental gymnastics to do, much less hold to. My last thought on this is that I did not come to faith through historical research or apologetics. I came to love Jesus through prayer and then all the rest comes later.

Quote: FrGamble

people who have made up their minds to not believe.

You mean the people who need actual
evidence to base their beliefs on, and
don't just go by what crap they were fed
as a child buy adults who didn't know any
better. Yup, that's a pesky group, us
evidence demanders..