Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

You haven't demonstrated how yelling
at your kids break any divine laws, which
is the definition of sin.

First of all, please be clear here - do you or do you not know the definition of sin? You seem to have such a strong belief in the definition of sin that you broker no disagreement about this one definition you have latched unto without any real understanding of what it means. This narrow vision you seem to have of sin is probably what is stopping you from understanding it. Yes, yelling at your kids for no reason and in a mean and vindictive way is breaking divine law of not loving your neighbor as yourself.

Quote:

Not for a nano second do I believe
Jesus died for these silly nonsense reasons.

What is silly nonsense? Is it a silly thing to feel guilt for treating our kids unfairly or hurting them? Is that nonsense? I don't think so. Remember too that Jesus died for all your sins - of the past, present, and future. Not any one sin, but all of them. The culmination of all these actions that go against your nature and your own desire to be the person you were created to be. God loves you and forgives you of all of them.

Quote:

You avoid this subject
assiduously, with great care.

Umm...Bob, please look at the title of this thread that is the 2nd longest on the forum. I'm happy to talk about Original Sin because as I've said before it is the most obvious and easiest to prove teaching of Christianity. Look at the front page of the paper tomorrow or look in the mirror. Why do we find it difficult to do what we know is right? Maybe you can give an answer if you don't like the concept of Original Sin. I can't wait to hear it.

Quote:

They only want them
to feel the vague guilt you are trying to instill.

Now it is vague guilt? Well, we are making progress. Soon you will realize that I don't want anyone to feel any guilt and that it is not me or the Church but their own good conscience and their sinful actions that make us feel guilt.


p.s. I am still interested in if or how I may have made you feel attacked.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm happy to talk about Original Sin

That's really the only 'sin' I care about.
Discussing that Jesus died because you
yelled at your kids borders on insanity
to me. The Church is the polar opposite
of what shrinks do. A shrink realizes the
most destructive and debilitating human
emotion is guilt, so they try and show
people they can deal with shame and
guilt and not be self destructive.

The Church does the opposite, it piles
on the guilt so it can dispense it's vile
quack remedy, that somebody actually
died because you yelled at your kids.
That's just sick.

Original sin is what most Xtions believe
Jesus died for, but Jesus wasn't even
aware of the concept. He never talked
about it, never said that's why he was
here. Original sin came into being a
couple hundred years later, and came
about from an idea Paul had. Jesus
knew nothing about it, how could he.

The whole concept of Jesus dying for sins
was unknown to Jesus himself, so it's
a sham, like the rest of the religion.

I don't know how many times or ways I can say it but Christianity is about eliminating guilt and shame. If you hurt your kids you don't need the Church or a psychologist to tell you to feel guilt. What a psychologist and Christianity try to do is to help you overcome that guilt and be free from it. One of the best things you have said is: "the most destructive and debilitating human emotion is guilt,". I agree with you 100%. Why do you think Christianity makes you feel guilty? Jesus dies to free you from guilt. I don't know what you are not getting here?!?

Remember that Original Sin is not a personal sin you or I or anyone has committed. It is the woundedness or weakness of our human nature. Jesus died to save us from our actual sins that are a result of the weakness we have in doing what we know is right (aka Original Sin). Jesus also knows that He is sacrificing His life and dying to set us free from sin.
Of course Jesus knew of the concept of Original Sin. Anyone who knows human nature realizes that we have this struggle to do what we know is right and this struggle in us to not do what we know is wrong. This is something that everyone knows and wrestles with. Every philosophy and religion recognizes this fact of humanity. Don't you ever wonder why you don't always want to do what you know what is best for you or that you want to do things that are not good?

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know how many times or ways I can say it but Christianity is about eliminating guilt and shame.

You should listen to some of
Julia Sweeney's videos where
she says the exact opposite of
that. She went to a Catholic school
where they instilled guilt in her
on a daily basis. She used to be
a SNL cast member in the 80's.
She's an atheist now, bless her heart.

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you think Christianity makes you feel guilty?

Why do they still have Jesus nailed
to the cross when you enter church
2000 years later. They want the you
to get the constant reminder that
you supposedly put him there, the
guilt is on your head.

Quote: FrGamble

Remember that Original Sin is not a personal sin

It's not an anything, it's a made up
concept to sell a religious idea. It's
a concept that gives people nowhere
to turn if they believe it. You're born
soiled, a filthy sinner in gods eyes. You're
so filthy he had to have his own son
killed to save you. Feel the guilt washing
over you?

Jesus never knew about original sin, never
spoke about it, never said he was here
to die for it. This makes the whole religion
a sham, a con, a device to trick the gullible
and brainwash the kids at an early age.
But the word is getting out, people are wising
up, more and more people are turning their
backs on organized religion. It was bound to
happen, science and common sense destroys
superstition every time.

Jesus on the cross reminds you of His love that takes away anything you have done wrong. It is so you look at the cross and NOT see what you did, but rather you WILL see what He did for you. It is the perfect symbol of God's love for you, me, and the whole world. An eternal embrace of God who with arms outstretched died for you precisely to set us free from sin. I'm sorry you don't get it, but that is why Jesus is on the cross. You don't see an instrument of death you see a God who loves you so much He paid the penalty for our sins so there is no more need for guilt or shame.

I can't believe you are still holding onto things we have said over and over again in this thread. Original Sin is not a personal sin, but a wound in our nature. Original Sin therefore is not that you are a filthy sinner, it is that you are called to greatness. You are called to a relationship with a perfect loving God but we are very aware that we are not perfect.

Don't you yourself sometimes find it difficult to do what you know you should do and hard to not do the things you know you shouldn't? This is a universal dilemma for every human being, is it not? Jesus being a good Jew knew very well the story of the fall of man and Original Sin. Every culture, philosophy, and religion on earth recognizes and tries in their own way to deal with the problem of Original Sin, although they might call it by different words. You ignoring this reality or pretending it doesn't exist is just silly.

Quote: FrGamble

can't believe you are still holding onto things we have said over and over again in this thread. Original Sin is not a personal sin, but a wound in our nature. .

I'm still talking about it because
you never give a straight answer.
How did Jesus die for original sin
if he didn't even know what it was.
He never mentions dying for any
sins, why is that. He never says
he's the savior of mankind. This
was bestowed on him later, which
makes it meaningless and insulting.

What's entertaining is, going on
Xtion forums and reading really
smart Xtions argue about all this.
They make it so complicated that
it drives them crazy.

Their problem is they assume there's
a god, and then they assume that
god can be offended. So they set
about proving these negative assumptions
and get all wound up in knots over
it.

Quote: Evenbob

I'm still talking about it because
you never give a straight answer.
How did Jesus die for original sin
if he didn't even know what it was.
He never mentions dying for any
sins, why is that. He never says
he's the savior of mankind.

Jesus died for all sins we have ever or will ever commit. He, like every human person, knew and understood the human condition and our weakness in doing what we know is right. He did know what Original Sin was. He did mention dying for sins and reconciling the world to Himself. Read the accounts of the Last Supper or John chapter 6 to start in realizing He knew that He was to give His life for us so that we might live. He did many times say He is the savior of mankind, "I am the way, the truth, and the live." The famous John 3:16. "I came that you may have joy and that your joy may be complete." I mean there are many, many times Jesus speaks of being our savior and of His sacrifice He knew He was going to offer. I hope that is a straight enough answer for you.

Quote: FrGamble

He knew that He was to give His life for us so that we might live. He did many times say He is the savior of mankind, "I am the way, the truth, and the live." The famous John 3:16. "I came that you may have joy and that your joy may be complete." .

Vague statements that neither mention him
knowing he was the savior or him dying for sins.
What those statements mean can be taken in a
variety of ways, and you know it. Whole
sects of Xtionity have been built around
the different ways to interpret what they
mean.

The point is, your religion runs on and is
fueled by, pure emotion. There is no
common sense or science involved. You
make assumption after assumption, then
draw emotional conclusions from them.

No other part of life works like this, decisions
based on emotion are usually bad ones.
Only religion is accepted as a wise emotional
decision, go to any church and see how they
play up the melodrama.

Jesus didn't know he was dying for original
sin, a silly concept born after he was already
gone. He didn't know he was dying because
you might someday feel bad about yelling
at your kids. Jesus died as a public nuisance
and all the other stuff was added later.

If you could look at the religion without a
mind clouded with emotion from years
of indoctrination, you would clearly see
what a fraud it is. A fraud and a hoax designed
to have power over the gullible and the
ignorant.

Quote: Evenbob

What those statements mean can be taken in a
variety of ways, and you know it. Whole
sects of Xtionity have been built around
the different ways to interpret what they
mean.

I do know it. You are taking them in the wrong way based on your bias. I'm taking them correctly as they were intended. Did you read the Last supper discourses? By the way you can tell you are wrong because every denomination of mainstream Christianity knows what these passages mean and knows the explicit references to Christ who knew He is our Savior who came to die for all of our sins. Maybe you should have some pause about your understanding of the NT seeing that you are a self proclaimed hater of Christianity and an atheist.

Quote:

The point is, your religion runs on and is
fueled by, pure emotion. There is no
common sense or science involved.

I think you might be talking about atheism. There is no common sense, logic, or science that support the belief that there is no God. Christianity is a historical religion that has impacted human history like nothing else. It is the largest religion in the world and it is centered on a historical person who was crucified, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. This Resurrection event took a small group of followers persecuted by the most powerful empire at the time and their own people to spread the good news throughout the world. These are just facts. To believe in Jesus Christ is an act of the will and the intellect. You will not always feel like being a Christian, just like you won't always feel like being married or whatever else you choose in life. You therefore need to have a faith grounded in reason, fact, science, logic, and the will.

Quote:

You
make assumption after assumption, then
draw emotional conclusions from them.

Yeah, you are definitely talking about atheism here.

Quote:

Jesus didn't know he was dying for original
sin, a silly concept born after he was already
gone. He didn't know he was dying because
you might someday feel bad about yelling
at your kids.

Jesus knew He was dying for all of your sins; past, present, and future. He fact He knew He was dying for you, personally. He loving died for the person we know as Evenbob, so great was His love for you. It also wasn't about just one time you yelled at your kids. It is about all the times you yelled at your kids, your wife, others. It was about all the times in your life you lied, cheated, and stole. He knew this and lovingly bore the brunt of your sin to free you from all guilt and shame so you can be in a relationship with your God, for which you were made!

Quote:

If you could look at the religion without a
mind clouded with emotion from years
of indoctrination,

Oh Bob, if only YOU could do this you would then see not the warped view of religion you have been fed but rather its beauty and truth. I realize you have had many more years of indoctrination against religion and so I understand how hard this is for you. I'm going away on a mission trip soon for about 10 days in Mexico. I am going to be praying very hard for you and offering my trip for you and I hope when I get back we can talk some more about both of us being more understanding of each other and where we are coming from. That we can respect each other and our different beliefs more and make a recommitment to a better dialogue about truth.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm taking them correctly as they were intended.

That's what you all say, you're
all correct no matter how much
you differ. Of course this completely
nullifies the words. Which, according
to the Jesus Seminar, Jesus never
said anyway.

(skipping a whole bunch of blah blah blah
that I've already heard from you and addressed
a dozen times)

Quote:

and make a recommitment to a better dialogue about truth.

To tell you the real truth, I'm emmensely bored
with this subject now, all we do is repeat things
already said a year or three ago. I really don't
see much point in this going on. The more I
read about Xtionity, the more obvious it becomes
that it's made up nonsense of the worst kind.

It's funny, Julia Sweeny says this dawned on her
in church when she was 12 years old. That it
was all just a silly lie. She immediately went
to confession. In those days, the 60's, they were
trying a new way, the priest and confessor had
no partition between them and could see each
other. She told the priest of her revelation about
the religion being a lie and the priest started crying
and sobbing! She ran out, horrified that she had
made a priest cry. A few months later he quit the
priesthood and for years she thought it was because
of her. Turns out he too was disenchanted long
before she spoke to him and she had just triggered
all the emotion he had bottled up. Funny story.