Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

Is this a trick question,

Nope, no trick.

I asked what they have done for us, and provided a link to them killing our people. There are still survivors to swear to that fact.

We give them over 5 billion per year in foreign aid. I asked what they have done for us.

Nobody says it better about why
Jesus was not the OT messiah:

"Ancient Jews had no expectation—zero expectation—that the future messiah would die and rise from the dead. That was not what the messiah was supposed to do. Whatever specific idea any Jew had about the messiah (as cosmic judge, mighty priest, powerful warrior), what they all thought was that he would be a figure of grandeur and power who would be a mighty ruler of Israel. And Jesus was certainly not that. Rather than destroying the enemy, Jesus was destroyed by the enemy—arrested, tortured, and crucified, the most painful and publicly humiliating form of death known to the Romans. Jesus, in short, was just the opposite of what Jews expected a messiah to be.”
― Bart D. Ehrman, How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee

Finally a quote from Ehrman I can get behind. I really do respect his work as an academic. I agree Jesus was not what the Jews expected in a Messiah. They were still thinking small, like restoring the Kingdom of Israel small and kicking Roman butt small. This is not going to be what the Messiah had in mind and prophecy throughout the Old Testament gave them hints to start thinking bigger. God is about establishing a universal kingdom that is not one chosen group, but everyone. God is not about defeating earthly enemies of one nation, but really about defeating the enemies that are against us all - namely death itself.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree Jesus was not what the Jews expected in a Messiah.

As far as messiah's go, Jesus was
pathetic. He did NOTHING for the
Jews while he was here. In fact,
he was such a nuisance to them
they killed him. He was not the
grand and glorious ruler of Israel
that rebuilt the temple and made
Israel great again. He was one
of many wandering prophets and
was a nobody.

He only became famous thru myth,
long after he was dead. To this
day the Jews still totally reject him
in every way. Why would they not.

He was opening the Jews and all of us to a new reality of universal love of God for ALL people. He is the glorious and servant leader of humanity and did rebuild the temple of His body. Reading what you are writing recently I am sure that you have never really read the New Testament or you would know this. Immediately after his death and Resurrection thousands and thousands of Jewish people converted, including a fanatic Jewish scholar of the law named Saul. You really have no idea what you are talking about. I hate to say it but calling Jesus anything other than the most important and influential person ever to exist seems like a pathetic attempt to personally attack and deeply hurt me. In reality all it does is make you look stupid and mean.

Quote: FrGamble

He was opening the Jews and all of us to a new reality of universal love of God for ALL people. .

And yet you have zero proof of
anything. His own people, the
Jews, think he was a fraud. It
'hurts' you that people think
Jesus wasn't the messiah?
Then I propose you are in the
wrong business. If you are that
thin skinned and open to being
so easily injured, you should find
a profession that at least has a
small bit of actual proof behind
it other than 'a lot of people
believe it'.

Because that's all you have, hearsay.
Again, and this is very very important.
You want everyone to believe Jesus
was the Jewish messiah, when the
entire Jewish religion doesn't even
believe it. Do you see the fundamental
flaws in your argument? Zero proof
for your claims, and total rejection
by the very people Jesus was supposed
to the messiah of.

"The belief that Jesus is God, the Son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish theology. Jews believe Jesus of Nazareth did not fulfill messianic prophecies that establish the criteria for the coming of the messiah.[6] Judaism rejects Jesus as God, Divine Being, intermediary between humans and God, messiah or holy. Belief in the Trinity is also held to be incompatible with Judaism, as are a number of other tenets of Christianity."

I wasn't insulted that you think Jesus was not the Messiah. It is purposely provoking language you use in speaking about Jesus. You seem to have hate in your heart for Him and me and it is what drives you to so aggressively write the things you do. You also,seem blind to truth and logic.

Just another reminder that all of Jesus' first followers were Jewish. The first debate in the quickly growing Church was whether or not gentiles first had to become Jewish before they followed Christ. I have never heard a historian or anyone doubt any of this. It is historical fact.

Quote: FrGamble

Just another reminder that all of Jesus' first followers were Jewish.

So you equate a ragtag small group
of illiterate, uneducated Jews, some
of them as young as 13, with the
entire Jewish race?

Half or more of the disciples were
in their teens. None of them was
older than mid twenties when Jesus
died. John they estimate was 19 or
20. These were impressionable kids,
not sophisticated worldly adults.

Hows that for truth and logic. An
entire religion based on what the
illiterate uneducated kids who
followed him around thought,
2000 years ago. What could possibly
be wrong with that scenario..

Bob, I and many great scholars disagree with you about the make-up and details of the Apostles. What were the ages of the thousands and thousands of Jews who followed Jesus and joined the early Church? Seriously, read the Acts of the Apostles and I think you will see why you are you so off base.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob, I and many great scholars disagree with you

Not really. There is little argument
that most of the disciples were
very young, in their mid to late
teens. John himself 19 or 20.
This was a typical age for young
men to follow a prophet, before
marriage and kids.

If you were to see them as they were,
you would be appalled. A group of
ragtag children, this is the start of
your religion.