Original Sin?
June 19th, 2018 at 12:35:43 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Not really. I read article after article, and they all agreed that the apostles were very young boys. They make the point that Jews then were all about rules and tradition. If you were a Jew, you followed the traditions or you were ostracised. One of the traditions was, when you were done with school at age 13-15, you could get religious training by attaching yourself to a rabbi for awhile. Grown men older than 20 were supposed to be married and have a profession, that's what tradition dictated. They typically did not wander around with no job after the age of 20, following a rabbi. This is all fine and well, I have no problem with it. What I don't like is how the religion always portrays the apostles and Jesus as being so much older than they really were. No Xtion leader ever looks at one of the hundreds of paintings of Jesus and his disciples being depicted as wise looking middle aged men and tries to correct it. The way it's depicted is how they want the congregation to think of them. Nobody wants religious advice and inspiration from fresh faced know-nothing teen aged boys. Which is exactly what the apostles of Jesus were. It's the same bait and switch tactics that Xtions are famous for. You and I know that Rome crucified over a hundred thousand people. Ask your average Xtion and they think Jesus and the two thieves that were killed that way are unique. That's because they were never taught the truth. Ask them who wrote the gospels, and they'll tell you it was the actual people who's names are on them. Ask them about what the apostles looked like at the last supper, and they'll describe one of the paintings. Ask them what the message of Jesus was as he wandered and preached and they'll get it wrong every time. Xtionity is a game of smoke and mirrors. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
June 19th, 2018 at 1:40:58 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Bob, the Apostles did get older you know? I think you seem to playing a game of smoke and mirrors yourself. I don't get what you are complaining about. Are you mad Christian art is not perfectly realistic to the actual look of the Apostles? You've made a good argument that they weren't old men with beards. I don't know anyone who came to Jesus because they saw a picture of the Apostles as older men. The art reflects the notion of who the Apostles were and how they were revered. My curiosity is piqued about what you think Jesus preached about? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
June 19th, 2018 at 2:24:32 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
They depict it that way because they were NOT taught that the apostles were young boys at the last supper. I never heard it anywhere until I read Bart Ehrman talking about it. Ask any Xtion and he will tell you they looked like the wise older men you always see portrayed. It's misguiding people because the truth is not how they want Jesus thought about. Having young boys as his followers makes him seem weak and ineffectual.
Wow, we just talked about this extensively a few months ago. He preached the end is near, the kingdom of god is almost upon us, repent, 'repent because the kingdom of heaven has come near'. That was the core of what he preached from town to town. They followed him just like they follow end is near people now, it's seductive to be living in the 'end times'. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
June 19th, 2018 at 7:02:01 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | I don't think Christian art is misleading. We aren't talking about photos. I think if you asked people if the Apostles looked just like their statues they would say no. The art represents our respect for them. You've said that whatever the make-up was of the Apostles it was no different than anyone in that day. You've said that you don't have a problem with it other than you think art is bambozling people into thinking the Apostles were older. I guess I don't see what is so wrong with translating in art what was normal in a previous time to what is more normal today. You are kind of right about Jesus' preaching. It was about the Kingdom of God. However, the Kingdom is not just a future event it is also in the here and now. The Kingdom of God has broken upon us through Jesus and it will reach its fulfillment at the end of time. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
June 19th, 2018 at 7:12:56 PM permalink | |
Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | Look at daVinci's The Last Supper. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
June 19th, 2018 at 8:53:44 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Why would you, it's what you want people to believe the apostles looked like when Jesus taught them. He would look silly surrounded by pimple faced kids barely out of puberty, which was actually the case. Kids who are looking for a leader and will believe anything told to them. You know darn well it's misleading, quit being coy about it. It's just like at Subway. The sandwich you see up on the menu board looks nothing like the sandwich you get. The pic of the one I ordered had so much guacamole it was oozing out the sides of the bread. When I got the thing and opened it. the was a light smear of guac on the bread, that was it. I got the manager & said look at this, and then look at that one up there on the menu. Do they look even remotely the same to you? "Sir, that's advertising. You can't expect it look exactly like that." Maybe not, but I don't expect it to be depicted as a total fantasy. He gave me a refund. The apostles as depicted are a selling point, so they're portrayed as a fantasy of wise older men surrounding Jesus. It helps sell the religion, gives it substance and credibility. Just like green guac oozing out the sides of the sandwich. It does NOT look like this: If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
June 20th, 2018 at 4:11:16 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Wow, you are really bothered by this. This is the first time you've ever brought this up, did you just think about it or did you just read about it? The thing you don't seem to be getting is that the Apostles' ages were not out of the ordinary for that time. There were probably some that were younger and some that were older. Teenagers at that time were not the teenagers of today. With lower life spans and harder work I am sure people matured far quicker than they do today. You also have to remember again that even though all the Apostles, except John, were killed for their faith they did get older and wiser over the years. They were not always so young. I guess if you think DaVinci's Last Supper or other works of Christian art is advertising you have a point. However, I don't think these artists would say this is akin to a photo of what they should look like. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
June 20th, 2018 at 12:17:17 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
I absolutely positively 100% get that. I posted that Jews were very much into tradition (still are) and it was the tradition to follow a rabbi when you were 13 or 14. Jesus even referred to them as 'children', he never would have done that if they were over 20, it would have been a personal insult. And a 14 year old 2000 years ago has as much wisdom as a 14 year old today, that is, not much. And they would look the same, they didn't age faster then. I'll make the POINT of this again. Who cares that the apostles got older and what they did later. It's the time they were with Jesus that everybody talks about and paints about. It's about how the Church went along with and encouraged the deception that the apostles were older white haired men and bald men with long beards. This engenders respect from people. Who would listen to a religious leader who's merry band of followers were teenage boys too young to even shave yet. Nobody would take him seriously. And yes, I knew about this 45 years ago and had forgotten it. I remember the Xtions in my group were upset that I wanted to discuss it, but they had the last supper paintings firmly planted in their minds and didn't want it disturbed. Maybe you have sermons on this all time, reminding people that the apostles were very young boys. In 1972 nobody I knew was talking about it. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
June 21st, 2018 at 5:54:04 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 | If god was Jesus and Jesus was god, and god knows the future at all times, where was the 'sacrifice' of him dying on the cross. It's not a sacrifice if your a god and know you can't be killed. There is 'suicide by cop', when you kill yourself by making the cops shoot you. Didn't god/Jesus commit 'suicide by crucifixion'? He let himself be nailed to a cross because he knew he would come back from death. Where is the sacrifice in that, I don't see it. A real sacrifice would be he didn't know he would come alive again, he could have remained dead forever. But that's not how the myth goes, is it. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
June 21st, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Read Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes on the cross. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |