Original Sin?

June 19th, 2018 at 12:35:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
First of all there are many different opinions among historians about what Jesus and His Apostles looked like.


Not really. I read article after article,
and they all agreed that the apostles
were very young boys. They make the
point that Jews then were all about
rules and tradition. If you were a Jew,
you followed the traditions or you were
ostracised.

One of the traditions was, when you were
done with school at age 13-15, you could
get religious training by attaching yourself
to a rabbi for awhile. Grown men older
than 20 were supposed to be married and
have a profession, that's what tradition
dictated. They typically did not wander
around with no job after the age of 20, following
a rabbi.

This is all fine and well, I have no problem
with it. What I don't like is how the religion
always portrays the apostles and Jesus as
being so much older than they really were.
No Xtion leader ever looks at one of the
hundreds of paintings of Jesus and his
disciples being depicted as wise looking
middle aged men and tries to correct it.

The way it's depicted is how they want the
congregation to think of them. Nobody
wants religious advice and inspiration from
fresh faced know-nothing teen aged boys.
Which is exactly what the apostles of
Jesus were. It's the same bait and switch
tactics that Xtions are famous for.

You and I know that Rome crucified over
a hundred thousand people. Ask your
average Xtion and they think Jesus and
the two thieves that were killed that way
are unique. That's because they were never
taught the truth. Ask them who wrote the
gospels, and they'll tell you it was the actual
people who's names are on them. Ask them
about what the apostles looked like at the
last supper, and they'll describe one of the
paintings. Ask them what the message of
Jesus was as he wandered and preached
and they'll get it wrong every time.

Xtionity is a game of smoke and mirrors.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 19th, 2018 at 1:40:58 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Bob, the Apostles did get older you know? I think you seem to playing a game of smoke and mirrors yourself. I don't get what you are complaining about. Are you mad Christian art is not perfectly realistic to the actual look of the Apostles? You've made a good argument that they weren't old men with beards. I don't know anyone who came to Jesus because they saw a picture of the Apostles as older men. The art reflects the notion of who the Apostles were and how they were revered.

My curiosity is piqued about what you think Jesus preached about?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 19th, 2018 at 2:24:32 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
The art reflects the notion of who the Apostles were and how they were revered.


They depict it that way because they
were NOT taught that the apostles
were young boys at the last supper.
I never heard it anywhere until I
read Bart Ehrman talking about it.
Ask any Xtion and he will tell you
they looked like the wise older men
you always see portrayed.

It's misguiding people because the
truth is not how they want Jesus
thought about. Having young boys
as his followers makes him seem
weak and ineffectual.

Quote:
My curiosity is piqued about what you think Jesus preached about?


Wow, we just talked about this extensively
a few months ago. He preached the end is
near, the kingdom of god is almost upon
us, repent, 'repent because the kingdom
of heaven has come near'. That was the core
of what he preached from town to town.
They followed him just like they follow end
is near people now, it's seductive to be living
in the 'end times'.

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 19th, 2018 at 7:02:01 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I don't think Christian art is misleading. We aren't talking about photos. I think if you asked people if the Apostles looked just like their statues they would say no. The art represents our respect for them. You've said that whatever the make-up was of the Apostles it was no different than anyone in that day. You've said that you don't have a problem with it other than you think art is bambozling people into thinking the Apostles were older. I guess I don't see what is so wrong with translating in art what was normal in a previous time to what is more normal today.

You are kind of right about Jesus' preaching. It was about the Kingdom of God. However, the Kingdom is not just a future event it is also in the here and now. The Kingdom of God has broken upon us through Jesus and it will reach its fulfillment at the end of time.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 19th, 2018 at 7:12:56 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Look at daVinci's The Last Supper.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
June 19th, 2018 at 8:53:44 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I don't think Christian art is misleading. .


Why would you, it's what you want
people to believe the apostles looked
like when Jesus taught them. He would
look silly surrounded by pimple faced
kids barely out of puberty, which was
actually the case. Kids who are looking
for a leader and will believe anything
told to them.

You know darn well it's misleading, quit
being coy about it. It's just like at Subway.
The sandwich you see up on the menu
board looks nothing like the sandwich
you get. The pic of the one I ordered
had so much guacamole it was oozing
out the sides of the bread. When I got
the thing and opened it. the was a light
smear of guac on the bread, that was it.

I got the manager & said look at this, and
then look at that one up there on the
menu. Do they look even remotely the
same to you? "Sir, that's advertising.
You can't expect it look exactly like
that." Maybe not, but I don't expect
it to be depicted as a total fantasy. He
gave me a refund.

The apostles as depicted are a selling
point, so they're portrayed as a fantasy
of wise older men surrounding Jesus.
It helps sell the religion, gives it substance
and credibility. Just like green guac oozing
out the sides of the sandwich.

It does NOT look like this:

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 20th, 2018 at 4:11:16 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Wow, you are really bothered by this. This is the first time you've ever brought this up, did you just think about it or did you just read about it? The thing you don't seem to be getting is that the Apostles' ages were not out of the ordinary for that time. There were probably some that were younger and some that were older. Teenagers at that time were not the teenagers of today. With lower life spans and harder work I am sure people matured far quicker than they do today. You also have to remember again that even though all the Apostles, except John, were killed for their faith they did get older and wiser over the years. They were not always so young. I guess if you think DaVinci's Last Supper or other works of Christian art is advertising you have a point. However, I don't think these artists would say this is akin to a photo of what they should look like.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 20th, 2018 at 12:17:17 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
The thing you don't seem to be getting is that the Apostles' ages were not out of the ordinary for that time. .


I absolutely positively 100% get that.
I posted that Jews were very much
into tradition (still are) and it was
the tradition to follow a rabbi when
you were 13 or 14. Jesus even referred
to them as 'children', he never would
have done that if they were over 20,
it would have been a personal insult.

And a 14 year old 2000 years ago has
as much wisdom as a 14 year old today,
that is, not much. And they would look
the same, they didn't age faster then.

I'll make the POINT of this again. Who
cares that the apostles got older and
what they did later. It's the time they
were with Jesus that everybody talks
about and paints about. It's about
how the Church went along with and
encouraged the deception that the
apostles were older white haired men
and bald men with long beards. This
engenders respect from people. Who
would listen to a religious leader who's
merry band of followers were teenage
boys too young to even shave yet. Nobody
would take him seriously.

And yes, I knew about this 45 years ago
and had forgotten it. I remember the
Xtions in my group were upset that I
wanted to discuss it, but they had the last
supper paintings firmly planted in their
minds and didn't want it disturbed.
Maybe you have sermons on this all
time, reminding people that the apostles
were very young boys. In 1972 nobody
I knew was talking about it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 21st, 2018 at 5:54:04 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
If god was Jesus and Jesus was
god, and god knows the future
at all times, where was the
'sacrifice' of him dying on the cross.
It's not a sacrifice if your a god
and know you can't be killed.

There is 'suicide by cop', when
you kill yourself by making the
cops shoot you. Didn't god/Jesus
commit 'suicide by crucifixion'?
He let himself be nailed to a
cross because he knew he would
come back from death. Where
is the sacrifice in that, I don't see
it.

A real sacrifice would be he didn't
know he would come alive again,
he could have remained dead
forever. But that's not how the myth
goes, is it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 21st, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Read Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes on the cross.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (