Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Read Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes on the cross.

Kinda makes my point. Jesus had no idea
he was a god, so he asks why god was
abandoning him. But that's not in all the
gospels, is it. In some of the gospels
Jesus is downright chatty up on the
cross, talking to the two theives
and telling them what will happen.

In fact the gospels are all over the
place on this. In Mark Jesus hardly
talks about himself, in John it's all
he does is go on and on about
who he is.

That's the problem with legends
repeated by word of mouth, they
get changed and added to. We'll
never know what Jesus really said,
or if said anything at all about
being god.

But it's a fact that if he was god,
and knew it, as the Church claims,
there can't be a sacrifice. Jesus
can't die, indeed you claim he's
alive now. Nothing was sacrificed
and couldn't be, if Jesus was god.

If Jesus was God then His sacrifice on the cross and His death would not be the end, would it? In fact it was the beginning of the largest religion on Earth and our redemption. Jesus died and rose again to free us from death and to reconcile us to the Father.

Quote: FrGamble

If Jesus was God then His sacrifice.

If Jesus was god, then what did he sacrifice.
Nobody has ever explained that. If Jesus was
god, he couldn't die. He knew he would be
brought back to life. The word sacrifice means
to literally 'give something up'.

What did Jesus give up, if he knew he was
coming back to life after he died. What
did your god sacrifice if he knew the same
thing. It would seem they sacrificed nothing.

Look, I actually asked you a question, even
though I know the answer you'll give.

Do you think Jesus was not giving something up through His suffering and death? That's why I asked you to read that psalm. Jesus gave His life as a sacrifice for all of us. Even if you knew you are going to be okay is it still not a sacrifice to give a kidney or donate blood?

Quote: FrGamble

Jesus gave His life as a sacrifice for all of us.

But he was god you say, so there
was no 'sacrifice'. His body was
going to die anyway, so he made
it die a few years early, so what.
How is that a sacrifice if you're
a god.

A sacrifice is giving up something.
If Jesus is alive and well right now,
he rose from the dead, where is
the sacrifice. It's like you haven't
thought this through. In the myth
Jesus gains something, he sacrifices
nothing. It's like giving somebody
a hundred dollars and they give
you back a thousand. You can't say
you sacrificed the hundred, because
you got back 900 in profit. Jesus
profited from being crucified,
according to you.

So God becoming man to suffer and die for all of humanity is not a sacrifice because Jesus was Resurrected? I don't follow your logic. How does the end result of a sacrifice being good nullify the sacrifice itself? Do you think Jesus does not still suffer when those He died for reject Him and do evil? He gave up everything and the torture of it is that it wasn't enough. He knew better than anyone that the way He offers to salvation and happiness in this life and the next can be rejected through our free will. The ultimate act of sacrifice from God Himself who became man and died still won't save us all if we don't accept the gift. Talk about suffering and pain. Jesus does gain something in that He has given a way for every human being to be saved, but He sacrificed everything.

It is more like someone gave to everyone in the world 100 billion dollars and still they reject it and throw it back in His face. He gains nothing in that He is God, He can gain nothing for He already has it all. However, He can lose everything, suffer, die, and then be rejected. I really think you need to learn something about Christianity before you can reasonably discuss it.

Quote: FrGamble

He gains nothing in that He is God, He can gain nothing for He already has it all. .

The only way Jesus could have
sacrificed anything was if he
was going to live forever in his
body and never die. Then giving
that up on the cross would have
meant something. But that isn't
what happened.

He gave up a body that was going
to die anyway, so he could get
another body that you claim is
still alive today. That's the exact
opposite of a sacrifice, isn't it.

First of all Jesus didn't just take on human flesh and then leave it behind. He is still true God and true man in heaven and has taken on humanity forever. So maybe you do think there was some sacrifice after all. Nevertheless I am still confused about your understanding of sacrifice. If someone jumps on a grenade but they are able to save him, does that mean he didn't sacrifice?

Quote: FrGamble

If someone jumps on a grenade but they are able to save him, does that mean he didn't sacrifice?

An attempted sacrifice is not a sacrifice.
If I offer to sacrifice my car to a homeless
person, and he turns me down, I actually
sacrificed nothing.

I spoke with Ed the priest today and
we discussed this subject. He says he
came to realize Jesus sacrificed nothing
and it's a reason he left the priesthood.

He said as a priest and a Christian, you
don't question things like that. You just
take it on faith that there was a sacrifice.
But when he started to really examine it,
he couldn't find the sacrifice.

You cannot show that Jesus/god gave up
anything in this so called sacrifice. All
you can show is that he supposedly gained
everything. Now, if Jesus had died for
sins and was taken to hell forever, then
you would have a huge sacrifice. But you
have the polar opposite of that, don't
you.

I told Ed that you said I don't understand
Christianity at all. Ed told me he thinks I
have a better grasp on it than most people
he knows. Two priests, two opinions.

I'm really having a hard time understanding your view of sacrifice. Does sacrifice for you have to be forever? Does it require the person who sacrifices to be in eternal pain and suffering or it is not a real sacrifice? Did the man who ran into the burning building not sacrifice anything because his wounds healed?

Didn't you just say earlier something about if Jesus continues to be incarnate then it is a sacrifice? Well He does. What about the continued anguish for Christ from those who reject His offer of salvation?

What do you think Jesus gained? You said He gained everything, what do you mean? How can God gain anything?