Original Sin?

March 11th, 2014 at 1:30:29 AM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
No one in Purgatory will remain forever in that state or go to hell. If you go to purgatory you always end up in heaven eventually.


Yes, FrG just said that.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 11th, 2014 at 3:11:57 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: FrGamble
All this together gives us a more authentic interpretation than what a fundamentalist would give us.
I disagree, all of this "interpretation" gives us a rewrite to change the original meaning. See your quote below:
Quote: FrGamble
You seem very sure about this, have you checked with the other sources listed above? I also still think you are making a jump from the literal text to say that the serpent is without a doubt referred to as livestock or an animal, just because livestock and wild animals are mentioned in the verse. Could the mention of other animals be to contrast the talking serpent and his unique punishment over and above the regular animals?
If the author wanted to have God punish the devil inside the chatty serpent then the author would have written it that way. The text says that the peers of the talking serpent are livestock, not cherubim. If you were correct, the text would say: "Because you took possession of this serpent and caused it to talk to this gullible woman, you are cast from the heavens to live among the creatures of the world." But it doesn't say that. The bible actually sets up the scene by describing the Serpent as a craftier animal than any the Lord had made. You know this but didn't quote it. You quoted Wisdom of Solomon and Revelation instead. You purposely chose to excise Genesis 3:1 even though you knew it was there describing the serpent as an animal.

The reason you are insisting that the talkative serpent is not an animal is because it makes no sense. There are no talking serpents. Serpents don't talk. So you're making up a plausible reason for the serpent to talk. In order to do that, you have to ignore what the text actually says and quote other texts that describe the previous story in a way that you like so that you can retain your faith.
March 11th, 2014 at 3:53:26 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 50
Posts: 4810
Quote: Wizard
What is the difference between limbo and purgatory?
One is a dance, the other is a bar.
March 11th, 2014 at 3:59:46 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 50
Posts: 4810
Quote: s2dbaker

Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!

You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.
Does this mean a snake can not enter Heaven? Does the snake feel any sense of futility or remorse? Does the snake feel shame? Snakes are similar to any other species. Nature does not favor or disfavor them in any way.
March 11th, 2014 at 4:31:00 AM permalink
chickenman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 0
Posts: 368
Quote: FrGamble
As I mentioned earlier purgatory is temporary and getting us ready for heaven. Hell on the other hand is a permanent destination where one is eternally separated from God.

I think you might be asking that if Jesus descended to hell and returned, bringing with him many just souls from all of history than wasn't hell more like purgatory, a temporary place that Christ freed many from? That is a good question and we might ask why didn't the Apostle's Creed say, "He descended into purgatory"?

The Catechism address this question in paragraph 633
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him

This seems very contradictory. If purgatory is a sort of holding place for ultimate cleansing prior to heaven, then were the just who were sent to hell mistakenly sent there and not to purgatory? A lot of twisting and turning has to take place to reconcile all of these concepts and get everyone on the same page. Sort of...
He's everywhere, he's everywhere...!
March 11th, 2014 at 6:04:56 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 73
Posts: 1571
Quote: s2dbaker
The talking serpent in Genesis is just a talking serpent.


s2dbaker, you seem like a fine person, but you are now clearly being disingenuous. I was going to post a definition for "allegory" but of course you would be insulted by that. Because you are clearly too smart not to know what an allegory is.
The light at the end of the tunnel is often a freight train coming the other way! per Fleastiff
March 11th, 2014 at 7:36:27 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11352
Quote: s2dbaker
See your quote below:If the author wanted to have God punish the devil inside the chatty serpent then the author would have written it that way.


Yes, provided the author knew about fiction. Remarkably few people know fiction is a relatively recent development. I mean the mostly fictitious Bible, or any other ancient book, really, such as the Illiad, were presented as true, and in fact contained some truth in them. We call these things legends, now, and don't take them at face value.

Anyway, since made-up, imaginary stories, events, people, characters and so on were thought to be real, the rules for fiction did not apply to them. One rule is not to look too deeply at the characters, because otherwise they tend to fall apart. Some characters can stand more scrutiny than others, of course. But as a rule the more fantastic a character seems, the more likley they are to fall apart under close scrutiny. The Bible has many fantastic characters.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
March 11th, 2014 at 8:09:18 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 103
Posts: 6772
Quote: Fleastiff
Does this mean a snake can not enter Heaven?


Who would want to go to Heaven if it was filled with snakes?
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
March 11th, 2014 at 8:15:38 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: odiousgambit
s2dbaker, you seem like a fine person, but you are now clearly being disingenuous. I was going to post a definition for "allegory" but of course you would be insulted by that. Because you are clearly too smart not to know what an allegory is.
Of course I'm being disingenuous. Who in their right mind would believe a word of that stuff? I could understand an allegory or even a fable or a parable but the next chapter of Genesis establishes a geneology from Adam to Noah. So the author fully intended the story to be the reality as he recorded it in his version of history. (I'll wait for another thread to discuss the horrible God of Noah) After Noah, the geneology continues. The only reason to include genealogy is the establish credibility. The author meant the story to be taken as truth, not figurative but literal. So arguing that there is something called Original Sin requires that the story of Adam and Eve be taken as literal truth, otherwise Original Sin is as made up as the story (which of course, it is).
March 11th, 2014 at 8:17:48 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: AZDuffman
Who would want to go to Heaven if it was filled with snakes?
a snake handler?