Original Sin?

August 17th, 2019 at 2:17:13 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Tanko

How do you know it has been here forever?


Because it's obvious. You have to
redefine what the universe actually
is. It's not 'everything' as wiki says
it is. It's the place where everything
exists. A fish in the ocean thinks the
ocean is the universe. Not quite..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 17th, 2019 at 5:23:05 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: Tanko
Why not provide an explanation of creation that contradicts the laws of the physical universe, when those same laws are contradicted by the existence of the universe itself?

First Law of Thermodynamics: “Energy cannot be created or destroyed.”

Yet, the universe exists.

Michio Kaku


I don't understand your question.

My position is we don't know what happened at or before the big bang, and that there is no reason to believe any god or gods conceived of by humans were there, or were the cause.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 17th, 2019 at 10:25:03 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Dalex64
My position is we don't know what happened at or before the big bang, and that there is no reason to believe any god or gods conceived of by humans were there, or were the cause.


Yes we do. Wandering nomads in 4000
BC, ignorant people who ate with
their right hand only because they
wiped their ass with their left, they
made it up and convinced other
ignorant dopes it was true. The
tradition of convincing the ignorant
has continued to this day.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 17th, 2019 at 3:39:49 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Quote: Tanko
Why not provide an explanation of creation that contradicts the laws of the physical universe, when those same laws are contradicted by the existence of the universe itself?

First Law of Thermodynamics: “Energy cannot be created or destroyed.”

Yet, the universe exists.

Michio Kaku


I don't understand your question.

My position is we don't know what happened at or before the big bang, and that there is no reason to believe any god or gods conceived of by humans were there, or were the cause.


There is reason to believe and know that the creator or God or first cause (whatever term you would like) is not a material being and is supernatural, that the creator is eternal (at least at the creation of the world), and this creator is all powerful to create all that exists. That is what I think we can know for certain through reason alone. Still just thinking like our brilliant ancestors whose shoulders we stand on we can make good arguements that this creator is intelligent, creates laws, allows freedom, appreciates beauty, and that we are unique and special in the universe.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 18th, 2019 at 3:24:21 AM permalink
Tanko
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 1965
Quote: Evenbob
Because it's obvious. You have to
redefine what the universe actually
is. It's not 'everything' as wiki says
it is. It's the place where everything
exists. A fish in the ocean thinks the
ocean is the universe. Not quite..


You’re grasping at straws. I don’t care about that ridiculous example of what a fish thinks the universe is, or what desert nomads thought 4,000 years ago.

Try Newton, Kepler, Clausius, Thompson and Boyle.

In a previous post you said, the universe has ‘obviously been here forever’.

I asked how you know the universe ‘has obviously been here forever’, and you answered:

“Because it’s obvious”.

So, the universe has obviously been here forever, ‘because it’s obvious’.

On top of that, since you can’t answer the question, according to you, we 'have to redefine what the universe actually is’.
August 18th, 2019 at 5:20:13 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Just as a fish can not comprehend all that much beyond the ocean, the universe may indeed be beyond the scope of our comprehension. It is similar to the probabilities expressed in DNA matching where the testimony is often "a number larger than anyone in this room can understand".

The fish does his best where he is and does not try to find the beginning of the ocean, I see little use in trying to find the beginning of the universe. What would ever be an acceptable proof?
August 18th, 2019 at 10:05:37 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Tanko

So, the universe has obviously been here forever, ‘because it’s obvious’.


Obviously..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 18th, 2019 at 3:00:09 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
The ironic thing about Xtionity is,
they're all waiting for the 'return'
of something that never happened
in the first place. Kinda funny, actually.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 18th, 2019 at 6:37:34 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Fleastiff
Just as a fish can not comprehend all that much beyond the ocean, the universe may indeed be beyond the scope of our comprehension. It is similar to the probabilities expressed in DNA matching where the testimony is often "a number larger than anyone in this room can understand".

The fish does his best where he is and does not try to find the beginning of the ocean, I see little use in trying to find the beginning of the universe. What would ever be an acceptable proof?


Somehow I don't think comparing our thinking ability to fish is the right thing to do. Unlike fish we can know the universe we are in and know that what we are talking about is all that exists. Also human beings do our best when we do think about the beginning of all existence. It is amazing that we out of all creation can even think about such things.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 18th, 2019 at 7:42:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Fleastiff
I see little use in trying to find the beginning of the universe. What would ever be an acceptable proof?


Which universe? The Upanishads in India
says this universe of galaxies has sprung
into existence more times than there
are grains of sand on the beach. The
fact that we exist in it is about as mysterious
as it feels.
That is to say, not at all. Do you wander
around all day marveling at your
existence? Neither does anybody else.
It feels like we've been here forever
and always will be. No mystery, very
boring. That's why life is what you make
it while you're here this time.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.