Original Sin?

Oh brother, it is not the Church that makes people feel guilty for their sins, that is the result of sin. We all have to have some way to unload the guilt so it no longer makes us feel shame or burdens us. Religion is one very easy and helpful way to heal our sins so that we can move forward in life. I don't know why you think this is a bad thing? Do you think counseling is a bad thing for the same reasons?

Quote: FrGamble

Oh brother, it is not the Church that makes people feel guilty for their sins, that is the result of sin.

But sin is a MYTH, so of course it's the Church
making them feel guilty, they are the ones
propagating the falsehood that sin exists.
They create the problem, then create the
solution. Oy..

I said early on as an example, the Monks had
a devil of a time selling sin to the Indians
in Calif. They couldn't wrap their minds
around it, thought it was silly. They would
go along with it to keep the monks off their
backs and revert to their old ways as soon
as he was gone. They finally gave up on the
adults and found the kids much easier students,
a kid will believe any baloney you tell him.

Quote: FrGamble

Can you name a rule that the Church asks its members to follow that is not rational?

I'll grant my knowledge on the matter is rather incomplete, but I can't name one which is rational.

I do now more about Judaism. There are a few good things, but very little in the way of rationality.

Quote: Evenbob

But sin is a MYTH, so of course it's the Church
making them feel guilty, they are the ones
propagating the falsehood that sin exists.
They create the problem, then create the
solution. Oy..

I said early on as an example, the Monks had
a devil of a time selling sin to the Indians
in Calif. They couldn't wrap their minds
around it, thought it was silly. They would
go along with it to keep the monks off their
backs and revert to their old ways as soon
as he was gone. They finally gave up on the
adults and found the kids much easier students,
a kid will believe any baloney you tell him.

You continuing to say these things doesn't make it true or correct history. Please stop the madness, there is obviously sin. We do not do the things we wish we did and don't do the things we know we should. Just look in the mirror for proof. In regards to your exaggerated history of the work of the missionaries in the new world, you are again wrong. Not only did many adults convert but they remained faithful throughout their lives, some are saints. Also I imagine it is not an uncommon practice to teach the youth. You are living proof that old folks are stubborn and won't admit when they are wrong or change their ways no matter how obvious it is. Youth are more open to the truth and are very critical of stuff that is baloney.

Quote: FrGamble

there is obviously sin. .

For you there has to be, it's the absolute
bedrock your church is built on. Without
sin, without offenses against god, you
have no religion. I've seen pastors go
breathless with indignation that I would
even suggest there is no sin. When I ask
them to prove it, they seem baffled, like
they've never thought about it before.

Which of course they haven't. Sin is a given,
it's the 'problem' that religion was invented
to solve. People are obviously innately bad,
their nature is bad, they're always doing bad
things, this must be offensive to god, it must
be a slap in his face, so we'll call it sin. Now
we need something to deal with sin, so we'll
invent religion to deal with the concept we
just invented.

People are not innately bad, they are what
they are. Human.

Quote: FrGamble

Please stop the madness, there is obviously sin.

There are bad, harmful, evil actions, yes. But not sin. Nothing anyone does can possibly affect a deity that doesn't exist, or a long dead Jewish theologian.

Let's consider the following:

Suppose a parishioner (is that the right word?) told you in confession he'd shoplifted a pack of gum. What would you advise him to do? But before you answer, let's do more suppositions. Suppose you know the shopkeeper involved. You know he's aggressive in prosecuting shoplifters, and has pressed charges for less even than a pack of gum. so he's likely to call the cops on your parishioner if he found out. Then suppose for reasons of law, but not precedent, your parishioner will likely wind up in jail for a few months.

Now, what would tell him?

I'll tell you what I'd do in such a situation, were I asked for advice. I would say "Don't ever do it again. If I find out you do, I will personally call the cops."

Though the shopkeeper deserves restitution, the risk of jail is too high, and even a day in prison is too high a price to demand for a pack of gum.

The bedrock upon which the Church is built is love. There is still God and religion if there is no sin, that is how it was in the very beginning and that is how it will be at the very end. Again you keep repeating the same things and so I guess I have to as well. The concept of sin was not invented by the Church or anyone else, it is part of the human condition. Since we began we have been always looking for a way to handle and deal with our mistakes and failures, whether you believe in God or not, you still have to wrestle with yourself and why we do certain things and not do other things.

For the last time the Church does NOT teach that people are innately bad, that is the opposite of what Original Sin teaches us. You are innately good, made in the image and likeness of God, but are tempted to do bad because your nature has been wounded by the common fault of pride we are all heir to.

Quote: Nareed

There are bad, harmful, evil actions, yes. But not sin. Nothing anyone does can possibly affect a deity that doesn't exist, or a long dead Jewish theologian.

There truly is a God who very much exists. Sin hurts you and the community and as such affects God, who loves you and all people and wants nothing more than your happiness.

Quote:

Let's consider the following:

Suppose a parishioner (is that the right word?) told you in confession he'd shoplifted a pack of gum. What would you advise him to do? But before you answer, let's do more suppositions. Suppose you know the shopkeeper involved. You know he's aggressive in prosecuting shoplifters, and has pressed charges for less even than a pack of gum. so he's likely to call the cops on your parishioner if he found out. Then suppose for reasons of law, but not precedent, your parishioner will likely wind up in jail for a few months.

Now, what would tell him?

One of the things you can never do for a penance is force someone to reveal their crime. In many cases you can try to persuade him/her to do so if it would be good for them to do so and in some cases it would not be advisable. In this case I would of course say not to do it again and then ask the person to give something or make a donation to a local charity of their choosing.

Quote: FrGamble

There truly is a God who very much exists. Sin hurts you and the community and as such affects God, who loves you and all people and wants nothing more than your happiness.

I don't mean to offend, but if you were to tell me Santa Claus won't get me anything this year, you'd be just as effective.

Quote:

One of the things you can never do for a penance is force someone to reveal their crime. In many cases you can try to persuade him/her to do so if it would be good for them to do so and in some cases it would not be advisable. In this case I would of course say not to do it again[..]

Up to this point I agree. With some reservations I'll get to next.

Quote:

[..] and then ask the person to give something or make a donation to a local charity of their choosing.

Here I disagree. there are many worthy charities, certainly. But giving anything to a charity does nothing to provide restitution for the shopkeeper. It may serve as a salve on the shoplifter's conscience, but that would be wrong. If anything, He should carry the remorse as a chronic wound, and always remember how badly he felt. That's the surest way to keep him from doing it again, or doing worse, given the earlier advice.

Here are my reservations.

Suppose this time a parishioner confesses to something much worse. Let's say premeditated murder of an innocent person.

When you say you can't force your parishioner to reveal a crime, I suppose you have to give him absolution even if he doesn't turn himself in. Am I right?

To be frank, murder of an innocent person is something so morally repugnant, I'd turn him in if he didn't do it himself.

Quote: Nareed

It may serve as a salve on the shoplifter's conscience, but that would be wrong. If anything, He should carry the remorse as a chronic wound, and always remember how badly he felt. That's the surest way to keep him from doing it again, or doing worse, given the earlier advice.

I could not disagree more strongly. In my experience reminding people of their goodness and that they are loved is the surest way to change behavior. If you tag him as a shoplifter and have him hold that remorse as a chronic wound he will begin to identify himself as a no good shoplifter. While the fear of you turning him in or having to face the wrath of Nareed will work for a bit - it has no true staying power and absolutely no power to actually convert the heart or change the person. It is a million times better to free the person of the guilt and shame of shoplifting so they know that they are better than the crime and that a thief is NOT who they are. They feel good about themselves and they are then inspired to live up to the high regard God sees in them, as His precious child.

Quote:

Here are my reservations.

Suppose this time a parishioner confesses to something much worse. Let's say premeditated murder of an innocent person.

When you say you can't force your parishioner to reveal a crime, I suppose you have to give him absolution even if he doesn't turn himself in. Am I right?

To be frank, murder of an innocent person is something so morally repugnant, I'd turn him in if he didn't do it himself.

The requirement to receive forgiveness is a sincere contrition for their sin. In the case of murder I would be hard pressed to be convinced of their true sorrow if they were not willing to turn themselves in. In fact in some cases if the confession is only to assuage their guilt and they have for example no true remorse or even no desire to never commit the sin again, then technically it is not a valid celebration of the Sacrament and I am no longer bound by secrecy and could very well turn him in. My experience with these sins always is during prison ministry so the turning themselves in dilemma is not usually a problem.