Abortion

Quote: Pacomartin

I think that the Wizard has a point. If yTou don't want the child at the end of 8 months of pregnancy, then adoption should be the only option.

I don't personally have a problem with abortion being outlawed for an individual who tries to acquire more than 3 separate abortions. You're either now using it for otherwise available birth control or you're incompetent. And 3 might be pushing it. I might think two is enough, without getting a judge involved to make a ruling on any further legal abortions.

On the issue of abortion I do think people can change their mind's. In fact I reckon we are all more in agreement than we realize. If we redid the poll to say who thinks abortion is a sad and awful thing for everyone involved I would say we would all agree, as would the vast majority of people. Once we look at the acience and logic of things it becomes painfully clear about what abortion is.

What is not clear is the painful reality of unplanned pregnancies for people or the kind of cases Paco mentions. These rend the heart and I will be the first to admit that cliches like, "abortion is murder" don't help. These sad moments in people's life require empathy and accompaniment. People need our help not condemnation nor encouragement to kill an innocent.

Back to the Wizards question (though I don't see the relation very clearly), I still think flipping the switch is causing 10 people to die. I understand the grizzly math and that is 10 less than if you stood by helplessly. It is awful to see 20 people die but if someone said to you if you murder these 10 or even this 1 innocent person they can all live I wouldn't do it.

Oh I almost forgot, I wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what Face said. Education is key. However, it can be a little polyanaish to not recognize that laws teach and enforce what we should learn as well.

Quote: FrGamble

It is awful to see 20 people die but if someone said to you if you murder these 10 or even this 1 innocent person they can all live I wouldn't do it.

You must have a number. How about sacrifice 1 person for 6 million Jews. (and no it can't be you)

Sometimes when a woman can't or won't go through a pregnancy to have a child, a couple will pay another woman to go through labor and deliver a baby.

The woman that carry's the fetus to birth is paid for her effort.

Or sometimes couples will give a woman that doesn't want her baby money for the child, and that couple raises it and treats it as their own.

How is this different than selling slaves ? Other than the child usually isn't forced into bondage, work, etc.

So a woman in Birmingham, Alabama who is 5 months pregnant gets into an argument with another woman. The argument escalates, a gun is drawn, a shot is fired, and the fetus is killed. (The pregnant woman survives.) Is the shooter indicted for manslaughter? Nope. The pregnant woman is indicted!

The grand jury decided that it was the pregnant woman who initiated the argument with the shooter, thus she is responsible for the fetus' death, not the shooter.

Ugh. Too bad the fetus wasn’t armed and this whole mess could have been avoided!

Basically Alabama wants to imprison the pregnant woman for starting an argument, but not imprison the killer who fired the gun during the argument.

So if we're going to imprison pregnant women for starting an argument...

Shall we imprison pregnant women for missing a prenatal doctor's appointment?

Shall we imprison pregnant women for riding an amusement park roller coaster?

Shall we imprison pregnant women for eating deli meat or soft cheese?

Shall we imprison pregnant women for not wearing a seatbelt? (Jennifer Jorgenson spent 3 years in prison for the crime of not wearing a seatbelt.)

This isn't a war on abortion; this is a war on pregnant women.

Quote: reno

...Shall we imprison pregnant women for not wearing a seatbelt? (Jennifer Jorgenson spent 3 years in prison for the crime of not wearing a seatbelt.)

The way I read the link, "In Jorgensen’s case, the jury ruled she was negligent for not wearing her seatbelt. But the conviction was overturned"

Did she still have to spend 3 years in prison ?

Quote: reno

Basically Alabama wants to imprison the pregnant woman for starting an argument, but not imprison the killer who fired the gun during the argument.

I think you missed something on this one, at least the way I read it "Jones who initiated and pressed the fight, which ultimately caused Jemison to defend herself and unfortunately caused the death of the baby."

It sounds to me like a physical altercation. They were blows or some sort of attack going on initiated and pursued by the pregnant woman. She may have been pregnant but she was attacking the other woman who was not interested in a fight.

She wouldn't have been guilty just for starting an argument. She was actively pursuing an attack, the way I read it.