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August 16th, 2017 at 11:22:47 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: Nareed
Yes. if they want to put up statues to Benedict Arnold or Alger Hiss, they should do so. You wouldn't want people to forget either of them, would you?

.


Most of these Generals totally sucked including Lee
Its one debacle after another making poor decisions and getting thousands soldiers killed for nothing by many different generals
Lee had a huge southern army north of DC
He should have marched on DC or Baltimore
Instead, he attacks Gettysburg where the Union clearly had the superior defensive position
Poor decision that got thousands killed
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
August 16th, 2017 at 11:40:12 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: terapined
Most of these Generals totally sucked including Lee


The Union generals sucked more.

Lee is a hard person to study, as he was such a disgustingly weak, moral coward. But he seems to have been a competent at the tactical level and rather hopeless at the strategic one. He benefited more from incompetence in the Union forces, IMO. Not someone who deserves to be honored.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 16th, 2017 at 11:51:13 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Nareed
Let's get two things straight:

1) The rally in Charlottesville was a "Unite the Right" affair, involving people such as:
I'm not defending them or their white supremacist or anti Jewish rhetoric. I will say they have the right in this country to free speech. They also applied for and received permits months early, got them lost them got them back in court to have a parade or whatever. For most people, they are just jerks, don't go and support them. I didn't. The organizer and others said the demonstration was about not tearing down the Lee Statue. Lee also had quite a military career and went to west point.

Other statues of Confederate statues are their to honor those who fought for the South. It is our history. Just as the Alamo is our history. Would you want that torn down as so many Mexicans were killed there?

Do you want us to tear down Mt. Rushmore because two of the four were slave owners? Jefferson famously had many children by his slave women. Where will it stop? Tell me where it stops? You can't swing a dead cat around without offending someone.

What about monuments to General Custer? Do you want them torn down because of all the Indians he slaughtered, [genocided] ? I see these statues as historical works of art that may make some kid go read a book.


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2) No one, and I mean no one, learns any history from statues.
How about the plaques at the base of them? I am personally moved by the art and beauty of these old statues. I do learn history when I walk parks and see mounted civil war era figures.

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Confederate traitors to the USA represent some kind of essential part of history that must be preserved is bogus.
The civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights, and trade. That tidbit of history needs to be taught by all available means. These idiots destroying our visual history often scream about the racism of the south trying to enforce their constitutional right to secession. The war of Northern aggression should also stand as evidence that our government will print fake money and pay us to kill each other. Another fact could be brought to light about who were the big slavers? It surely wasn't the average grunt fighting for his beliefs and his way of life. Slavery was already on the decline.

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Or would you maintain the Germans need to have statues of Hitler and Mengele?
See Mt. Rushmore again and all the statues to Indian killers.


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Those who defend Nazis are no better than Nazis themselves.
If that's what it takes is to let these people speak to never forget our history, than let them peaceably assemble.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

”Martin Niemoller", It goes both ways.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
August 16th, 2017 at 12:06:51 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: terapined
Most of these Generals totally sucked including Lee
Its one debacle after another making poor decisions and getting thousands soldiers killed for nothing by many different generals


And many will die today, in MENA. I've said since I got here, all wars are bankers wars. War, what is it good for?

Do you want to take down the crosses at civil war southern cemeteries ? Let people honor their dead.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
August 16th, 2017 at 12:24:23 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
"If Democrats seeking the removal of historical memorials tied to racist history are serious, they should be tripping over one another to get in front of a camera and call for the removal of memorials and namesakes to Presidents Andrew Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Lyndon Baines Johnson, and Sen. Robert C Byrd.
These five men had two things in common–all had a penchant for racism to one degree or another, and all were Democrats."

Byrd and Lyndon Johnson are infamous
for using the N word whenever possible,
and FDR interred Japanese for the duration
of the war. Byrd alone has dozens of
memorials, they love his KKK racist old ass.
There are 8 bridges and highways named
after him also. Get rid of them all. Byrd
filibustered the Civil Rights Act in 1964,
his grave should be moved to a racist
cemetery.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 16th, 2017 at 12:52:18 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: petroglyph
I'm not defending them or their white supremacist or anti Jewish rhetoric.


Whitewashing is a form of defense.

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I will say they have the right in this country to free speech.


Sure. And so do counter-protesters if they want to try to drown them out. A right to free speech means the government can't take any judicial notice of the content of speech, not that such content has to be published, broadcast or even listened to.

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Other statues of Confederate statues are their to honor those who fought for the South.


There was no honor in fighting for the South There is no honor in fighting for treason and perpetuation of oppression.

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It is our history. Just as the Alamo is our history. Would you want that torn down as so many Mexicans were killed there?


You should ask if I would oppose taking down statues of Santa Anna.

Oh, wait. there aren't any!

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Do you want us to tear down Mt. Rushmore because two of the four were slave owners?


As far as I can tell, Robert E. Lee never owned slaves. You're barking up the wrong standard.

But Jefferson did not fight to preserve slavery.

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What about monuments to General Custer? Do you want them torn down because of all the Indians he slaughtered, [genocided] ?


What is it about monuments to highly incompetent military officers in America? I suppose you also keep statues of George McClellan.

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How about the plaques at the base of them?


How about packets of Sweet'n'Low?

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The civil war wasn't about slavery,


No, it was about the right to keep slavery.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 16th, 2017 at 12:52:36 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Quote: Nareed
Yes. if they want to put up statues to Benedict Arnold or Alger Hiss, they should do so. You wouldn't want people to forget either of them, would you?

Now, how about we agree that statues to Confederate soldiers and leaders can stay, as long as each one is labeled with "TRAITOR TO THE USA" in big, bold letters? If children are expected to learn history from statues, let them learn the true history.


A statue of Hitler shooting himself in the head
.
Saddam being hanged.

I think you need a full relief mural to depict the beginning and the end. I might be okay with that idea.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
August 16th, 2017 at 12:54:41 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
A statue of Hitler shooting himself in the head


That's the only think he ever did right.

But then he ruined it by killing the man who killed Hitler.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 16th, 2017 at 12:55:14 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Some of the confederacy aren't personal memorials, but obvious trolling of the Union winners. Stone Mountain for example.

That's what we would call it in today's terms. May the South rise again, and all those sentiments.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
August 16th, 2017 at 1:56:37 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Nareed
Sure. And so do counter-protesters if they want to try to drown them out. A right to free speech means the government can't take any judicial notice of the content of speech, not that such content has to be published, broadcast or even listened to.
No. Not drowned out. Volume is a legitimate concern of public order. Its OPPORTUNITY to be heard but not right to be listened to.

Even Northern states that raised companies of Negroes had no respect for the Negro, they just had manpower as an advantage. New York gave blacks the right to vote but the restrictions were so onerous that it was solely a paper right.

It was more a war about regionalism in economics and politics. Southern property rights were being trampled because without a work force what good was all that otherwise valuable land.