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July 11th, 2019 at 2:23:43 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: FrGamble
Bob and I are currently having a discussion about the Inquisition. We are finding a book to read about it to discuss it..
What be wrong with Wikipedia?
July 11th, 2019 at 2:59:15 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25011
Quote: Fleastiff
What be wrong with Wikipedia?


Wikipedia has an entry written
by Wikipedia saying to trust
nothing written there unless
you verify it elsewhere.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 11th, 2019 at 6:14:49 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Evenbob
unless you verify it elsewhere.
Perhaps the verification that you seek will be found in the archives containing the books made from the flesh of witches.
July 11th, 2019 at 6:41:17 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
Posts: 18755
The bottom of the Wiki pages usually has plenty of references/

Quote:
References[edit]
Notes[edit]
^
Jump up to:
a b Hans-Jürgen Prien (21 November 2012). Christianity in Latin America: Revised and Expanded Edition. BRILL. p. 11. ISBN 978-90-04-22262-5.
^ Kamen, Henry (1999). The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0300078800.
^ Smith, Damian J., Crusade, Heresy and Inquisition in the Lands of the Crown of Aragon, Brill, 2010 ISBN 9789004182899
^ Parrilla, Gonzalo Fernández, Miguel Hernando De Larramendi, and José Sangrador Gil. Pensamiento Y Circulación De Las Ideas En El Mediterráneo: El Papel De La Traducción. (Thought and Idea Propagation across the Mediterranean: The Role of Translators) Cuenca: Servicio De Publicaciones De La Universidad De Castilla-La Mancha, 1997
^ Cervera, César: "La ascendencia judía del Rey Fernando «El Católico» y su primo el II Duque de Alba" ABC, 3 June 2015 08:34h https://www.abc.es/espana/20150602/abci-ascendencia-judia-fernando-catolico-201506011949.html
^ Hassán, Iacob; Izquierdo Benito, Ricardo (2001). Universidad de Castilla La Mancha, ed. Judíos en la literatura española(Jews in Spanish Literature). España
^ M.R. Menocal "The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain". BackBay Books. New York, 2009
^
Jump up to:
a b c Suárez Fernández, Luis (2012). La expulsión de los judíos. Un problema europeo. Barcelona: Ariel.
^ José María Zavala," Isabel Íntima" (Intimate Isabella), Planeta editorial. Madrid.
^ Ortiz, César Mantilla. Derecho De Los Judíos De Castilla En La Época De Su Expulsión(Legal Rights of Jews in Castile at the Time of their Expulsion). Valladolid: Maxtor, 2015
^ W.S. Maltby, "The Black Legend in England" (Duke historical publications),1750
^ Brian Catlos "Secundum suam zunam": Muslims in the Laws of the Aragonese "Reconquista", Mediterranean Studies Vol. 7 (1998), pp. 13-26 Published by: Penn State University Press
^ Kamen (1998), p. 4
^ Peters 1988, p. 79.
^ Peters 1988, p. 82.
^
Jump up to:
a b Letter of Hasdai Crescas, Shevaṭ Yehudah by Solomon ibn Verga (ed. Dr. M. Wiener), Hannover 1855, pp. 128 – 130, or pp. 138 - 140 in PDF; Fritz Kobler, Letters of the Jews through the Ages, London 1952, pp. 272–75; Mitre Fernández, Emilio (1994). Secretariado de Publicaciones e Intercambio Editorial (ed.). Los judíos de Castilla en tiempo de Enrique III : el pogrom de 1391 [The Castilian Jews at the time of Henry III: the 1391 pogrom] (in Spanish). Valladolid University. ISBN 978-84-7762-449-3.; Solomon ibn Verga, Shevaṭ Yehudah (The Sceptre of Judah), Lvov 1846, p. 76 in PDF.
^ Letter from Hasdai Crescas to the congregations of Avignon, published as an appendix to Wiener's edition of Shevaṭ Yehudah of Solomon ibn Verga, in which he names the Jewish communities affected by the persecution of 1391. See pages 138 – 140 in PDF (Hebrew); Fritz Kobler, Letters of the Jews through the Ages, London 1952, pp. 272–75.
^ Solomon ibn Verga, Shevaṭ Yehudah (The Sceptre of Judah), Lvov 1846, pp. 41 (end) – 42 in PDF); Kamen (1998), p. 17. Kamen cites approximate numbers for Valencia (250) and Barcelona (400), but no solid data about Córdoba.
^ According to Gedaliah Ibn Yechia, these disturbances were caused by a malicious report spread about the Jews. See: Gedaliah Ibn Yechia, Shalshelet Ha-Kabbalah Jerusalem 1962, p. רסח, in PDF p. 277 (top) (Hebrew); Solomon ibn Verga, Shevat Yehudah, Lvov 1846 (p. 76 in PDF) (Hebrew).
^ Abraham Zacuto, Sefer Yuchasin, Cracow 1580 (q.v. Sefer Yuchasin, p. 266 in PDF) (Hebrew).
^ Raymond of Peñafort, Summa, lib. 1 p.33, citing D.45 c.5.
^ Kamen (1998), p. 10
^ Notably Bishop Pablo de Santa Maria, author of Scrutinium Scripturarum, Jeronimo de Santa Fe (Hebraomastix) and Pedro de la Caballeria (Zelus Christi contra Judaeos). All three were conversos. (Kamen (1998), p. 39).
^ Notably the Libro verde de Aragon and Tizón de la nobleza de España (cited in Kamen (1998), p. 38).
^
Jump up to:
a b The Spanish Inquisition: a History. Joseph Pérez - Yale University Press - 2005
^ Pérez, Joseph (2012) [2009]. Breve Historia de la Inquisición en España. Barcelona: Crítica. ISBN 978-84-08-00695-4.
^ Canessa De Sanguinetti, Marta. El Bien Nacer: Limpieza De Oficios Y Limpieza De Sangre : Raíces Ibéricas De Un Mal Latinoamericano. Taurus, Ediciones Santillana, 2000.
^
Jump up to:
a b c d e Elvira, Roca Barea María, and Arcadi Espada. Imperiofobia Y Leyenda Negra: Roma, Rusia, Estados Unidos Y El Imperio Español. Madrid: Siruela, 2017
^ Abou Al Fadl, K. (1994). Islamic law and Muslim minorities: the juristic discourse on Muslim minorities from the second/eight to the eleventh/seventeenth centuries. Islamic Law and Society, 1.
^ Goosenes, A. (1997). Les inquisitions modernes dans les Pays-Bas meridionaux. 1520-1633. 2 vols. Bruselas
^ Boronat, P. (1901). Los moriscos españoles y su expulsión. 2 vols. Valencia.
^ Stuart, Nancy Rubin. Isabella of Castile: The First Renaissance Queen. New York: ASJA Press, 2004.
^ Black, Robert. Machiavelli. Abigdon, Oxon: Routledge, Tylor &, 2013. pp83-120 (the quote is paraphrased)
^ El Rey Y El Papa: Política Y Diplomacia En Los Albores Del Renacimiento (Castilla En El Siglo Xv) Óscar González - Sílex - 2009
^
Jump up to:
a b The Marranos of Spain. From the late XIVth to the early XVIth Century, 1966. Ithaca, 1999
^ "Introduction, Part 1 - British History Online". www.british-history.ac.uk.
^ The Spanish Inquisition: a History Joseph Pérez - Yale University Press - 2005
^ The terms converso and crypto-Jew are somewhat vexed, and occasionally historians are not clear on how, precisely, they are intended to be understood. For the purpose of clarity, in this article converso will be taken to mean one who has sincerely renounced Judaism or Islam and embraced Catholicism. Crypto-Jew will be taken to mean one who accepts Christian baptism, yet continues to practice Judaism.
^ Peters 1988, p. 85.
^ Peters 1988, p. 89.
^ Thomas Madden: The Real Inquisition. National Review 2004
^ Cited in Kamen (1998), p. 49
^ Ben-Sasson, H.H., editor. 1976. p. 588.
^ Kamen (1998), pp. 49–50
^ Archbishop Arnold H. Mathew, The Life and Times of Rodrigo Borgia, p. 52-53. Quote: "Isabella's Confessor, Torquemada, had imbued her with the idea that the suppression of all heresy within her realms was a sacred duty. She had, therefore, in November 1478, obtained a bull from the Pope, Sixtus IV., for the establishment of the Inquisition in Castile. Many modern writers have sought to reduce her share in the introduction of this terrible institution, but it must be remembered that Isabella herself probably considered it a meritorious action to punish with inhuman barbarity those whom she looked upon as the enemies of the Almighty. In 1480, two Dominicans were appointed by her, as Inquisitors, to set up their tribunal at Seville. Before the end of the year 1481, 2,000 victims were burned alive in Andalusia alone. The Pope himself became alarmed and threatened to withdraw the bull, but Ferdinand intimated that he would make the Inquisition altogether an independent tribunal. This it became later for all practical purposes, and its iniquitous proceedings continued unchecked."
^ Ben-Sasson, H.H., editor. A History of the Jewish People. Harvard University Press, 1976, pp. 588-590.
^ Kamen (1998), p. 157
^ Kamen (1998), p. 60
^ quoted in Kamen (1998), p. 20
^ Kamen (1998), pp. 29–31
^ Kamen (1998), p. 24
^ Murphy, Cullen (2012). God's jury : the Inquisition and the making of the modern world. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-618-09156-0.
^ Kamen (2014), p. 369
^ Kamen (2014), p. 370
^ S.P. Scott: History, Vol II, p. 259.
^ Absent records, the Inquisition decreed that all Moors were to be regarded as baptized and thus were Moriscos subject to the Inquisition. Secular authorities then decreed (in 1526) that 40 years of religious instruction would precede any prosecution. Fifty Moriscos were burnt at the stake before the Crown clarified its position. Neither the Church nor the Moriscos utilized the years well. The Moriscos can be stereotyped as poor, rural, uneducated agricultural workers who spoke Arabic. The Church had limited willingness or ability to educate this now-hostile group.Green (2007), pp. 124-127
^ Trevor J. Dadson, The Assimilation of Spain’s Moriscos: Fiction or Reality? Journal of Levantine Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, Winter 2011, pp. 11-30
^ Kamen (1998), p. 222
^ Kamen (1998), p. 217
^ Kamen (1998), p. 225
^ Lea (1901), p. 308
^ Lea (1901), p. 345
^ Trevor J. Dadson: The Assimilation of Spain's Moriscos: Fiction or Reality?. Journal of Levantine Studies, vol. 1, no. 2, Winter 2011, pp. 11-30
^ Boase, Roger (4 April 2002). "The Muslim Expulsion from Spain". History Today. 52 (4). The majority of those permanently expelled settling in the Maghreb or Barbary Coast, especially in Oran, Tunis, Tlemcen, Tetuán, Rabat and Salé. Many travelled overland to France, but after the assassination of Henry of Navarre by Ravaillac in May 1610, they were forced to emigrate to Italy, Sicily or Constantinople.
^ Adams, Susan M.; Bosch, Elena; Balaresque, Patricia L.; Ballereau, Stéphane J.; Lee, Andrew C.; Arroyo, Eduardo; López-Parra, Ana M.; Aler, Mercedes; Grifo, Marina S. Gisbert; Brion, Maria; Carracedo, Angel; Lavinha, João; Martínez-Jarreta, Begoña; Quintana-Murci, Lluis; Picornell, Antònia; Ramon, Misericordia; Skorecki, Karl; Behar, Doron M.; Calafell, Francesc; Jobling, Mark A. (December 2008). "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 83 (6): 725–736. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.11.007. PMC 2668061. PMID 19061982.
^ Michel Boeglin: La expulsión de los moriscos de Andalucía y sus límites. El caso de Sevilla (1610-1613) (In Spanish)
^ Vínculos Historia: The Moriscos who remained. The permanence of Islamic origin population in Early Modern Spain: Kingdom of Granada, XVII-XVIII centuries (In Spanish)
^ Kamen (2014), p. 100
^ Kamen (2014), p. 94
^ Kamen (2014), p. 126
^ Kamen (2014), p. 98
^ Kamen (2014), p. 97
^ These trials, specifically those of Valladolid, form the basis of the plot of The Heretic: A novel of the Inquisition by Miguel Delibes (Overlook: 2006).
^ Kamen (1998), p. 99 gives the figure of about 100 executions for heresy of any kind between 1559 and 1566. He compares these figures with those condemned to death in other European countries during the same period, concluding that in similar periods England, under Mary Tudor, executed about twice as many for heresy: in France, three times the number, and ten times as many in the Low Countries.
^ Kamen (2014), pp. 102-108
^ Kamen (1998), p. 98
^ Kamen (1998), pp. 99–100
^ Rodriguez-Sala, Maria Luisa. Los PROTESTANTES Y LA INQUISICIÓN. UNAM. https://archivos.juridicas.unam.mx/www/bjv/libros/6/2905/6.pdf
^ These trials are the theme of the film Akelarre, by the Spanish director Pedro Olea.
^ Henry Kamen: The Spanish Inquisition A Historical Revision. 1999
^ Cited in Henningsen, Gustav, ed. The Salazar Documents: Inquisitor Alonso de Salazar Frías and Others on the Basque Witch Persecution. Vol 21, Cultures, Beliefs, and Traditions: Medieval and Early Modern Peoples. Boston: Koninklijke Brill, 2004. Second Report of Salazar to the Inquisitor General (Logroño, 24 March 1612): An account of the whole visitation and publication of the Edict with special reference to the witches' sect, 352.
^ Green (2007), pp. 223-224
^ Kamen (1998), p. 259
^ Monter, Frontiers of Heresy, pp. 276-299.
^ Kamen, Henry (2011). La Inquisición Española. Una revisión histórica. p. 192 pp259
^ Green (2007), p. 320
^
Jump up to:
a b William R. Denslow, Harry S. Truman: 10,000 Famous Freemasons, ISBN 1-4179-7579-2.
^ Johnson, Paul, A History of Christianity, Penguin, London 1976.
^ Kamen (2005), pp. 126–130
^ Green (2007), p. 296
^ Green (2007), p. 298
^ Statistics are not available for Spanish oarsmen, but the general state of Mediterranean oared galleys circa 1570 was grim. "... galley slaves led lives bitter and short." "One way or another the oared galley consumed men like fuel. Each dying wretch dumped overboard had to be replaced - and there were never enough."Crowley, Roger (2009). Empires of the sea : the siege of Malta, the battle of Lepanto, and the contest for the center of the world. New York: Random House Trade Paperbacks. pp. 77–78. ISBN 978-0-8129-77646.
^ Arrazola, Lorenzo. Enciclopedia Espanola De Derecho Y Administracion: Ciu-col .. Madrid: Saraswati Press, 2012 pp 572(Enciclopedia of Spanish Penal and Administrative Law)
^ Estudios Sobre Cultura, Guerra Y Polt̕ica En La Corona De Castilla (siglos Xiv-xvii) (Studies Over War Culture and Politics in the Kingdom of Castile) Fernando Cc̀eres - Editorial Csic Consejo Superior De Investigaciones Cientf̕icas - 2007
^ Kaler, Amy. Fertility, Gender and War: The "culture of Contraception". University of Minnesota, 1998.
^ Online access to the Historical Archives of the Inquisition in Valencia, where the records of the trials and correspondence to officials can be found; you can find the corresponding ones to various other areas in Spain in the same webpage.
^ Henningsen, Gustav: The Spanish Inquisition and the Inquisitorial Mind, p. 220.
^ García Cárcel (1976), p. 21
^ Kamen (1998), p. 141
^ In Sicily, the Inquisition functioned until 30 March 1782, when it was abolished by King Ferdinand IV of Naples. It is estimated that 200 people were executed during this period.
^ García Cárcel (1976), p. 24
^ Cited in Kamen (1998), p. 151
^ Kamen (1998), p. 57
^ Kamen (1998), p. 174
^ Though over the course of the trial, their identities likely became apparent.
^ "In the tribunal of Valladolid, in 1699, various suspects (including a girl of 9 and a boy of 14) were jailed for up to two years with having had the least evaluation of the accusations presented against them" (Kamen (1998), p. 180).
^ Walsh, Thomas William, Characters of the Inquisition, P.J. Kennedy & Sons, 1940, p. 163.
^ https://www.mecd.gob.es/dam/jcr:7d0f0b12-1c0e-49f6-b437-23206a95086d/original-primera-parte.pdf preserved transcripts of a trial as sample
^ https://www.mecd.gob.es/dam/jcr:a1b40405-5bbd-4a44-a031-41bb121702a3/transcripcion.pdf Printed version of previous source
^ "redirigeme - Ministerio de Educación, Cultura y Deporte" (PDF). Mecd.gob.es. Retrieved 2 January 2019.
^ Thomas F. Madden. "The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition." Crisis (october de 2003).
^ "LA INQUISICIÓN ESPAÑOLA".José Martínez MillánAlianza Editorial Bolsillo(2010)
^ Kamen, Henry (2011). La Inquisición Española. Una revisión histórica. pp. 191-192.
^ H. C. Lea, III, p. 33, Cited in Kamen (1998), p. 185. García Cárcel (1976), p. 43 finds the same statistics.
^ Thomas F. Madden. "The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition." Crisis (October de 2003).
^ Messori, Vittorio (2000). Leyendas Negras de la Iglesia. Editorial Planeta (this source is a Catholic apologist)
^
Jump up to:
a b Bethencourt, Francisco. La Inquisición En La Época Moderna: España, Portugal E Italia, Siglos Xv-xix. Madrid: Akal, 1997.
^
Jump up to:
a b Haliczer, Stephen, Inquisition and society in the kingdom of Valencia, 1478-1834, p. 79, University of California Press, 1990
^
Jump up to:
a b c Kamen (1998), p. 190
^ by Peters, Edward, Inquisition, Dissent, Heterodoxy and the Medieval Inquisitional Office, pp. 92-93, University of California Press (1989), ISBN 0-520-06630-8.
^
Jump up to:
a b Kamen (1998), p. 189
^ Crespo Vargas, Pablo L. La Inquisición Española Y Las Supersticiones En El Caribe Hispano. Madrid: Palibrio, 2011. pp120-130
^ Sabatini, Rafael, Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition: A History, p. 190, Kessinger Publishing (2003), ISBN 0-7661-3161-0.
^ Scott, George Ryley, The History of Torture Throughout the Ages, p. 172, Columbia University Press (2003) ISBN 0-7103-0837-X.
^ Carrol. James, Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History, p. 356, Houghton Mifflin Books (2002), ISBN 0-618-21908-0.
^ Peters, Edward, Inquisition, Dissent, Heterodoxy and the Medieval Inquisitional Office, p. 65, University of California Press (1989), ISBN 0-520-06630-8.
^ García Cárcel (1976), p. 39
^ Peters 1988: 93-94
^ Kamen (1998), pp. 192–213
^ Stavans 2005:xxxiv.
^ Cited in Elorza, La Inquisición y el pensamiento ilustrado. Historia 16. Especial 10º Aniversario La Inquisición; p. 81.
^ Members of the government and the Council of Castile, as well as other members close to the court, obtained special authorization for books purchased in France, the Low Countries or Germany to cross the border without inspection by members of the Holy Office. This practice grew beginning with the reign of Charles III.
^ Elorza, La Inquisición y el pensamiento ilustrado. p. 84.
^ The argument presented in the periodicals and other works circulating in Spain were virtually exact copies of the reflections of Montesquieu or Rousseau, translated into Spanish.
^ Church properties, in general, and those of the Holy Office in particular, occupied large tracts of today's Castile and León, Extremadura and Andalucia. The properties were given under feudal terms to farmers or to localities who used them as community property with many restrictions, owing a part of the rent, generally in cash, to the church.
^ Elorza, La Inquisición y el Pensamiento Ilustrado. Historia 16. Especial 10º Aniversario La Inquisición; pg. 88
^ See Antonio Puigblanch, La Inquisición sin máscara, Cádiz, 1811–1813.
^ Kamen (2014), p. 382
^ Historians have different interpretations. One argument is that during the Ominous Decade, the Inquisition was re-established- because of a statement made by King Alphonso upon a visit to the Vatican that he would reintroduce it if the occasion arose, but the Royal Decree that would have abolished the order of the Trienio Liberal was never approved, or at least, never published. The formal abolition under the regency of Maria Cristina was thus nothing more than a ratification of the abolition of 1820.
^ Kamen (2014), pp. 372-373
^ 1492 Ban on Jews Is Voided by Spain– The New York Times, 17 December 1968
^ Anderson, James Maxwell. Daily Life during the Spanish Inquisition. Greenwood Press, 2002. ISBN 0-313-31667-8.
^ Kamen (1998), p. 150
^
Jump up to:
a b Data for executions for witchcraft: Levack, Brian P. (1995). The Witch Hunt in Early Modern Europe (Second Edition). London and New York: Longman, and see Witch trials in Early Modern Europe for more detail.
^ Eire, Carlos M. N. Reformations: The Early Modern World 1450-1650. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2016 pp 640
^ For full account see: Gustav Henningsen, The Database of the Spanish Inquisition. The relaciones de causas project revisited, in: Heinz Mohnhaupt, Dieter
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
July 11th, 2019 at 8:16:49 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Great post rxwine.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 11th, 2019 at 9:16:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25011
Quote: FrGamble
Great post rxwine.


lolol! Look how many times the name 'Kamen'
appears. He's a well known Vatican shill, he
toes the 'rewrite the history of the Church'
line. He's like a Holocaust denier, except he's
an inquisition denier. It wasn't that bad, it's
all been lied about and blown out of proportion,
nothing but urban legends and rumors. The
Church was just an unfortunate bystander,
helpless to stop the atrocities. Auschwitz
and Dachcau weren't summer camps but
neither were they death camps, claim the
deniers.

"Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time. This means that any information it contains at any particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or just plain wrong. Biographies of living persons, subjects that happen to be in the news, and politically or culturally contentious topics are especially vulnerable to these issues. Edits on Wikipedia that are in error may eventually be fixed. However, because Wikipedia is a volunteer run project, it cannot monitor every contribution all of the time. There are many errors that remain unnoticed for days, weeks, months, or even years. Therefore, Wikipedia should not be considered a definitive source in and of itself."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 12th, 2019 at 7:02:40 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Bob you embarass yourself with posts like this. Kamen is a renowned historian with no connection to the Vatican. If you would read his book he doesn't deny the Inquisition or some of the evil that took place. He does correct with historical proof the myths written about in historical fiction you seem to get your information from. To compare him to a Holocaust denier is an offense to our intelligence and a stain on yours.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 12th, 2019 at 10:30:54 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25011
Quote: FrGamble
. Kamen is a renowned historian with no connection to the Vatican.


He has a tacit connection the Vatican,
an obvious one would be, well, too
obvious. He was born and raised
Roman Catholic and it's his life's work
to be an apologist and rewrite the
history of the Church.

"Henry Kamen seeks to defend the undefendable, justify what the Catholic Church itself has long embarrassingly and quietly apologized for- The Spanish Inquisition. And once again, Henry Kamen simply lacks sources that correspond to the point he is making... So here we see Kamen lists three sources, dismisses them as being "far from unbiased" without any sources proving the statement he made in that paragraph. It just continues on and on. This book is full of such "biased" sources, that make one point, while Kamen dismisses them as being ridiculous or too far fetched."

Kamen does just what YOU do, wave
your hand and say a source is a lie
or is ridiculous, and never produce
a source of your own to prove it's
a lie. For some reason you seem
to think saying I embarrass myself,
I offend your intelligence,
is somehow a substitute for sources
to back up your claims.

It the oldest debate trick there
is. When you have nothing left
in your quiver, you try and belittle
the character of the person you're
debating. All you have to bolster
your argument is bluster and
obfuscation. Obviously.

(Why is this in the News thread
when it's hardly news. And why
are you making me repeat the
same things here and in PM's.
Pick one and stick with it.)






If you would read his book he doesn't deny the Inquisition or some of the evil that took place. He does correct with historical proof the myths written about in historical fiction you seem to get your information from. To compare him to a Holocaust denier is an offense to our intelligence and a stain on yours.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 13th, 2019 at 6:46:32 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Speaking of sources can you tell us where your quote comes from and who said it? Also I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to belittle you. I'm trying to convict you and engage you in some way so you can wake up and realize your errors. I think if you read Kamen you would see the many sources and evidence he uses as a historian. You can always claim bias, it's easy to do, the hard part is examining if you have a bias? We obviously do have biases so we need to be extra careful about really looking at the evidence to find the truth. I imagine the truth about the Inquisition will not be great for either of us. For you it will be realizing the exaggerated myths you've been taught are horribly wrong. For me I will be facing not so much what the Church did but the question as to how could a people who strongly profess to be Catholic do such evil things? It is a question I often think about.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 13th, 2019 at 6:56:11 AM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
Speaking of sources can you tell us where your quote comes from and who said it? Also I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to belittle you. I'm trying to convict you and engage you in some way so you can wake up and realize your errors. I think if you read Kamen you would see the many sources and evidence he uses as a historian. You can always claim bias, it's easy to do, the hard part is examining if you have a bias? We obviously do have biases so we need to be extra careful about really looking at the evidence to find the truth. I imagine the truth about the Inquisition will not be great for either of us. For you it will be realizing the exaggerated myths you've been taught are horribly wrong. For me I will be facing not so much what the Church did but the question as to how could a people who strongly profess to be Catholic do such evil things? It is a question I often think about.



Padre - if you were raised in isolation, you would never know of "God" - if you were raised in a home where every day you worshipped a can of tuna, then you would believe that can of tuna was "God" - it is all indoctrination