Owning Mahowny

May 22nd, 2014 at 8:52:07 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Wizard
Father, you've said before that without god there is no morality and that good and bad are just empty philosophical concepts, if I understand your argument correctly. You've also expressed surprise when atheists have found a moral code that you approve of.

So, it comes as a surprise that you now say that we all have a natural sense of right and wrong within us. I agree with the statement, but it seems at odds with things you've posted before. Hopefully you won't ask me to dig up exact quotes.


Yes, without God there can be no objective morality. Without God we can't really call anything good or bad, everything becomes subjective like Evenbob described a few posts up. What I don't think he realizes is what a horror subjective morality is and how impossible it is to truly hold. If good and bad only depend on our circumstances and what we are taught than can we say what the Nazis did was good?!?

There is absolutely a true and objective sense of what is right and wrong that is implanted within us by God's gift to us of reason. This is not a contradiction to the fact that without God there is not TRUE right and wrong. In fact for me the existence of God is the only way to adequately explain what we both agree on, namely that we are all from Australia to Zimbabwae born with a natural sense of right and wrong that is fundamentally the same.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 22nd, 2014 at 9:10:21 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
can we say what the Nazis did was good?!?


To the Nazi's it was good, that's why they
did it. To say good and evil don't exist
outside of god is not true. We invent god,
then give him impossible powers and
responsibilities. I've always said god and
religion are a cop out, they prevent people
from really examining their lives. The
religious leaders tell them, worry not,
me and god and Jesus have done all the
heavy lifting for you, relax. Not hardly..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 23rd, 2014 at 3:24:03 AM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: FrGamble
Yes, without God there can be no objective morality. Without God we can't really call anything good or bad, everything becomes subjective like Evenbob described a few posts up. What I don't think he realizes is what a horror subjective morality is and how impossible it is to truly hold. If good and bad only depend on our circumstances and what we are taught than can we say what the Nazis did was good?!?

There is absolutely a true and objective sense of what is right and wrong that is implanted within us by God's gift to us of reason. This is not a contradiction to the fact that without God there is not TRUE right and wrong. In fact for me the existence of God is the only way to adequately explain what we both agree on, namely that we are all from Australia to Zimbabwae born with a natural sense of right and wrong that is fundamentally the same.


Fr Gamble,

Never forget, on the internet, the first party who brings up Nazis loses the argument. :)
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
May 23rd, 2014 at 5:51:38 AM permalink
1nickelmiracle
Member since: Mar 5, 2013
Threads: 24
Posts: 623
Shouldn't gambling threads devolved be at wizardofvegas.com ?
May 23rd, 2014 at 8:08:46 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: beachbumbabs
Fr Gamble,

Never forget, on the internet, the first party who brings up Nazis loses the argument. :)


Lol, I forgot about that rule but in this case the one who says that there is way we can consider what the Nazis did as good is the real loser.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 23rd, 2014 at 8:57:34 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
Lol, I forgot about that rule but in this case the one who says that there is way we can consider what the Nazis did as good is the real loser.


It's a stupid rhetorical trick, not a rule.

The thing is too many people bring up Nazis and/or Hitler as comparisons to things that fall waaaaay short. Still, that does not mean you can't point out similarities with Nazi methods, when warranted, or use them as an example when it fits.

In a novella by H. Beam Piper, a character called General Carlos von Schlichten (interesting reasons for that name) fights a native rebellion in another planet. At one point he does something really nasty in one region to prevent the war from spreading to antoher region. When called on it, he acknowledges "It's a trick I learned from my Nazi ancestors." Of course there's much wrong with that sentence (Nazi is not an ethnicity, for starters).

And in some parallel universe there surely is a Hitler rule, wherein the first person to bring up the hated Goodwin loses the argument ;)
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
May 23rd, 2014 at 12:54:06 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Lol, I forgot about that rule but in this case the one who says that there is way we can consider what the Nazis did as good is the real loser.


I said the Nazi's thought what they were doing
was good. Where did I say 'we' can consider
it good. No wonder you're confused about about
what sin is.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 23rd, 2014 at 3:27:46 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
I said the Nazi's thought what they were doing
was good. Where did I say 'we' can consider
it good. No wonder you're confused about about
what sin is.


Quote: Evenbob
Good and evil are a matter of your position
in the event or idea. By themselves, they
don't exist. Sin is just another opinion,
built on other faulty opinions, that have no
existence outside of our minds.


So Bob are you going to say that we can't say what anyone does is objectively evil because they thought they were doing good? Are you going to hold to your crazy idea that good and evil and just "a matter of your position in the event or idea."? By allowing this subjective morality you are indeed saying that we have no right to call what the Nazi's or anyone else did as evil or bad because it is their opinion and their position! This is bullshit and I might very well get suspended for saying it. There are things that are objectively wrong and it doesn't matter what your position, opinion, or circumstances are.

For example I know it is wrong to curse on these posts no matter who you are or what the circumstances are but darn it this subjective morality crap gets me a little riled up. I have sinned, mea culpa and I accept the punishment.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 23rd, 2014 at 3:52:25 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
So Bob are you going to say that we can't say what anyone does is objectively evil because they thought they were doing good?


Again, what's evil to you may not be evil
to someone else. We used to play the
good and evil game in philosophy class.

A traffic accident where someone dies is
evil to the person who died and for his
family. Yet it's good for the person who
collects the body, it's how he makes his
living. It's good for the mortician and the
grave digger. It's evil for the dead mans kids,
they won't go to college now. Yet it's good
for the man who gets promoted to fill the
dead guys job.

You can go on and on with different stories.
Good and evil don't exist on their own, they're
just your opinion on how an event effects you.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 23rd, 2014 at 4:00:52 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
but darn it this subjective morality crap gets me a little riled up. .


Yes, life would be so much easier for religious
people if we just accepted the 'crap' as the
truth and never questioned it. The Church
got so 'riled up' at the stupidity of the public
that they instituted forced conversions, as
you well know. I fully believe they would have
them now if they could get away with it. Look
at your own reaction, you just can't understand
why I don't see things your way.

"The Spanish Inquisition targeted primarily forced converts from Judaism who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion or of having fallen back into it."
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.