Owning Mahowny

So Bob your telling us that the Holocaust was good for some people? That torture, rape, and murder of the innocent can be looked at as good for some people and their perspective? I'm not good at swearing so I'll just call you out again for untruth, and dangerous and disgusting untruth at that.

So much of what you spout about the Inquisition is not true, but I can see the temptation to get out the rack for people who believe what you're saying. For the record I also believe you really don't hold to what you are saying above, you are to smart for that. You are surely playing the devil's advocate and doing well.

Quote: FrGamble

So Bob your telling us that the Holocaust was good for some people?

The Nazi's thought it was very good, that's why
they did it. Getting rid of the Jews was a top
priority to them, if they thought it was a bad
thing, they wouldn't have done it.

Quote: FrGamble

So much of what you spout about the Inquisition is not true,

So there were no forced conversions by the Church?
Really? Has the Church got that far into rewriting
history?

Quote: Evenbob

The Nazi's thought it was very good, that's why
they did it. Getting rid of the Jews was a top
priority to them, if they thought it was a bad
thing, they wouldn't have done it.

The point is not whether they thought it was a good or bad thing, the fact of the matter is that it was the worst of things, it was evil plain and simple. Even if everyone in the whole world thought it was a good thing that does not change the fact that the slaughter of innocent people is evil. If you cannot admit that, whether or not the Nazi's thought it was good or not, the Holocaust was an objectively evil action then we are done here.

Quote: Evenbob

So there were no forced conversions by the Church?
Really? Has the Church got that far into rewriting
history?

You do realize it is the height of hypocrisy to criticize the Church for forced conversions and rewriting history when you just tried to make the argument that there is no good or bad? According to you I could say that the perspective and situation of the Church at the time made these actions all good and that it is not a sin. Thank God the Church thinks your logic is poppycock and is embarrassed and repudiates her sins in the past.

Quote: FrGamble

does not change the fact that the slaughter of innocent people is evil.

In merry olde England, in the Dark Ages, cannibalism
was a way of life in the countryside. There were whole
families that hunted humans for food. Were they evil?
To their victims they were, but they themselves looked
at it as survival. My dog hates the scissors that I trim him
with, they are evil incarnate. To me they're just scissors.
Good and evil are opinions. I think the Holocaust was
evil, they Nazis did not. Opinions.

Quote: FrGamble

You do realize it is the height of hypocrisy to criticize the Church for forced conversions and rewriting history when you just tried to make the argument that there is no good or bad?

No hypocrisy. I think forced conversions are evil, the
Church thought they were wonderful. Opinions. Good
and evil do not exist own their own, they aren't 'things'.
They are two sides of the same coin, as in the story I
told of the man dying. That being the case, it's obvious
good and evil are just concepts, like sin.

I don't mind the Church and it's beliefs, wrong as they
are. I understand those in charge have to push certain
agendas to make everything work. It's part of the game
of doing something interesting and useful to fill up the
time between cradle and grave. Like stamp collecting
or bird watching. The Church does soul saving. In the
end it all works out the same.

Quote: Evenbob

In merry olde England, in the Dark Ages, cannibalism
was a way of life in the countryside. There were whole
families that hunted humans for food. Were they evil?

I know I said I would be done but your example gives me my last chance to try to help you understand. The action of killing a human being and eating them is always and everywhere wrong, it is an objectively evil act. Circumstances can mitigate the culpability of that action if for example you were crazy, starving with no food, etc. However you can NEVER make the action of hunting down another human being and eating them a good act. It can be understood to a certain extent but it is still evil. I hope you can see now that good and evil are NOT opinions, you can have opinions about was something justified or not, but you cannot have a opinion that evil is good or good is evil anymore than you can have an opinion that blue is red or red is blue. Things are just evil and things are blue and there is nothing you can do to change them by thinking they are just concepts or ideas.

Here is another way to prove this to you. In your example of cannibalism above take away the circumstance that the people were starving. Think of the action alone of hunting, killing, and eating innocent human beings? Would you still consider it good? Of course not! Notice the action did not change just the circumstances. The action by itself is either evil or good, your opinions about if they were justified or if it is understandable have nothing to do with the action itself which is and remains evil. You can get yourself in lots of trouble, I think you already have, by trying to argue that things that are evil are good because of the circumstances or perspective of a certain group of people. What you mean to argue is that they are justified or understandable or not.

Opps, double post.

Quote: FrGamble

I know I said I would be done but your example gives me my last chance to try to help you understand. The action of killing a human being and eating them is always and everywhere wrong, it is an objectively evil act.

Then I guess your last chance has failed.
Killing another human in cold blood is
certainly evil to the one being killed. But
not necessarily to the one doing the
killing.

Your flawed thinking in this comes from the
fact that you think judgements, like good
and evil, exist all by themselves in the universe.
You have not one scintilla of proof that this
is true, you just accept it on faith. That's fine,
just don't expect the rest of us to be so generous
with what we believe and don't believe. Some
of us are a bit more pragmatic than that.

Pragmatic: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Have you, or anyone else on this forum, or in the whole world ever experienced the killing of an innocent person in cold blood as a good thing?!?! NO, therefore I would maintain that my thinking on this is based squarely on practical evidence and experience while your wild and dangerous thought is based on theoretical considerations without a scintilla of proof that it is true! To further bury your irresponsible thought lets go visit a few prisoners on death row for senseless murder and ask them if they thought their actions were "good". Your ideas my friend are the opposite of pragmatic and are wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

Have you, or anyone else on this forum, or in the whole world ever experienced the killing of an innocent person in cold blood as a good thing?!?!

Not of an innocent persons.

But how about a very guilty person?

I'm still undecided on the death penalty for most cases, but I was glad when Hugo Chavez died of cancer, when Osama met the nose of a bullet head-on, when Saddam swung at the end of a rope, when Qhadaffi got his, and also when McVeigh was executed. I expect I'll smile when the Castros bite the dust, too.

How am I supposed to feel about that?

Quote: FrGamble

Have you, or anyone else on this forum, or in the whole world ever experienced the killing of an innocent person in cold blood.

So good and evil have qualifyers? It's OK to murder a
soldier on the battlefield, but not an innocent bystander?
Face it, good and evil don't exist outside of where we
stand in a situation. All you're doing is playing the good/evil
game in reverse. You only want to see one side of the
coin, you refuse to see the duality that is life. That
everything is balanced, black and white, good and evil,
yin and yang. When we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima,
were the GI's hanging there heads at the evil act we had
done? Nope. In fact, we liked it so much we dropped another
one. The Japanese were appalled at how evil we were,
while US citizens were dancing in the streets because we won.