Confessional

Quote: Dalex64

No, the "problem of evil" is a perfectly logical and rational question when contemplating the existence of god.

A logical conclusion you can draw from these inconsistencies, why god does this or not this, is that there is no god, at least no god as conceived of and written down by humans. This is logical and philosophical evidence.

Like when they took quotes from the Bible and presented them as quotes from the Koran and presented them to people, people had a decidedly negative view of the quotes. (in America)

Similarly , if you took the violence god allows and even does himself, I doubt anyone could honestly defend many of them if they were presented as acts of men.

At best they would judge the acts like an egomaniac mafia boss who holds charity events at handicapped schools for the press, while gouging out eyes, and putting cement shoes on various people who don't worship him.


( handicapped schools for the press, heh well you know what mean I think : )

Quote: Face

Everyone with me? Everyone agree? I'm glad that you do.

Where this analogy completely falls off the rails is the repeated challenge for Team Atheist to supply their evidence.

My argument is that Team Atheist is not the prosecutor. They cannot be. In keeping with the analogy, Team A is the jury.

We have no evidence because we bring no case. What we are is an unmoved jury. We have heard cases; the Catholicism case, the Buddhism case, the Scientology case, and in all these cases, we, the jury, have no had the evidence to convict. That's it.

Would Team Atheist agree with this? That's how I feel, anyways. Every time I hear "Where's your evidence", it's like a dental pick on my spine. It just grates so bad, because it's just so incorrect. It'd be like issuing a "not guilty" verdict and having the prosecutor challenge you to supply who really dunnit, and if we couldn't, then we must convict. S#$% just don't work that way.

Does this make sense? Can anyone poke holes in my argument?

I think it makes sense. However, the jury cannot at the end of the trial determine that the dead body just came out of nowhere and there is no cause. It can only say that it is not convinced that it is God. You see Team Atheist sounds like a jury that is not impartial but is going into the trial with its mind already made up that there is no way that it could be God. Any evidence presented goes through that filter and is rejected. I would ask for a retrial with a jury more open to the evidence and the discussion.

The other problem is that I don't think the burden of proof is the same in our debate about faith in God as it is in the courtroom. Beyond a shadow of doubt is not how faith in God or anything works. We live our lives outside of a courtroom making decisions with nary a bit of evidence but based only on our feelings and prior experiences to guide us. In real life and outside of a courtroom we never ask for the same level of evidence that would convict us to say marry our bride or trust that the person who says they are Mr. Smith is indeed Mr. Smith.

Quote: FrGamble

Beyond a shadow of doubt is not how faith in God or anything works. We live our lives outside of a courtroom making decisions with nary a bit of evidence but based only on our feelings and prior experiences to guide us. In real life and outside of a courtroom we never ask for the same level of evidence that would convict us to say marry our bride or trust that the person who says they are Mr. Smith is indeed Mr. Smith.

That's fine, you think you see evidence of
god and you have faith. But quit expecting
those of us who see no evidence to climb
on your bandwagon and believe in god
just because you do. Because that's what
you're always asking, for us to take your
faith as evidence. We obviously have a
different idea of what evidence is, and
your so called evidence doesn't pass
muster. It would get thrown out by an
impartial jury every time.

Quote: Dalex64

I lack a good analogy for describing the effort of pointing out logical inconsistenies in religious beliefs.

What you lack is a theological understanding of these things.

Quote:

In heaven, you are incapable of sin because you are in the presence of god, but again you still have free will, even though you now lack any desire to sin.
Why do we need the free will to sin on earth, but not in heaven?

Who is present here but will not be present in Heaven will give you your answer.

Quote:

How is being in the presence of god in heaven different from being in the presense of god on earth? Isn't he everpresent? Are there places where god is less present or absent entirely?

The presence of God here is present in veiled ways, for example in the Sacraments. The presence of God in Heaven is immediate and unveiled.

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Why, if it is possible to have a place where we have free will and no desire to sin, that we do not have that on earth?

Because of sin.

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Why do some people think that the lack of a promise of eternal reward through heaven, such as posited by the theory of reincarnation, rob one of hope by thinking that you will be reliving the hell that is this earth over and over again?

Because of the need for ultimate justice.

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Why do they think god's perfect creations are so awful?

God's creations are not awful at all.

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Can god make mistakes? Can an all-knowing all-powerful being who sees the future as he sees the past make a mistake, be surprised, or take some action that he regrets?

No.

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No, the "problem of evil" is a perfectly logical and rational question when contemplating the existence of god.

The "Problem of Evil" is a perfectly human response to the question of God and a healthy one too. The idea that there is a greater good possible in the future when our lives or those that we love are going through such difficulties or suffering is hard if not impossible to see when we are going through it. The gift of free will often feels like a curse that we at times beg God to take back from us and from others. This is not logical or reasonable but at certain times no amount of logic will warm our hearts or sooth us when the realities of life are too uncomfortable or painful.

Quote: Evenbob

That's fine, you think you see evidence of
god and you have faith. But quit expecting
those of us who see no evidence to climb
on your bandwagon and believe in god
just because you do.

For goodness sake, or more appropriately for God's sake, don't believe just because I do. And certainly don't believe if you don't think there is no evidence to support your belief. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and as a jury just decide that FrGamble is a bad lawyer and did not prove his point. That doesn't mean that there is no God. God is much, much, much, much, better representing Himself - as the history of the Church bears witness to. Instead of me, listen to God who is already speaking in your heart and in your mind and then when you have some evidence whether it is physical or experiential then come to believe.

Quote: rxwine

Similarly , if you took the violence god allows and even does himself, I doubt anyone could honestly defend many of them if they were presented as acts of men.

Give it a break. In a time of such violence and evil a God who loved an enslaved people and set them free by eventually doing violence to their enslavers after repeated efforts at diplomacy had failed is not something that is indefensible, certainly not then and even not today.

Quote: FrGamble

Give it a break. In a time of such violence and evil a God who loved an enslaved people and set them free by eventually doing violence to their enslavers after repeated efforts at diplomacy had failed is not something that is indefensible, certainly not then and even not today.

You might as well be traveling on one of those old timey horse drawn wagons and selling "magic" elixirs. You have a more organized crew, but it's just the same otherwise.

After all this discussion about people believing the most absurd things, I've just learned that in one of the wealthiest and well-educated nations, Iceland, about fifty percent of the people claim to believe in "the Hidden People" (elves).

After all, perhaps we should remember that most astronauts join the flat earth society... of course its a joke "membership".

Quote: FrGamble

The gift of free will often feels like a curse .

Free will is a concept that doesn't exist
in reality. It's an illusion. We run on
auto pilot for 99% of the decisions we
make in life, free will never enters into
it. You yourself are a perfect example.
You were raised in the Catholic religion.
You are about as close to making a
rational decision about it as my dog
is in tuning down a beef bone. He has
to take it, he has no choice. You have
to believe in the Christian god, you
have zero choice in the matter.

This subject has been written about
exhaustively for a hundred years.
We're robots, slaves to our genes
and our upbringing. Free will is a
myth.

Quote: FrGamble

God is much, much, much, much, better representing Himself - as the history of the Church bears witness to. .

The Catholic church? The Church that started
the Crusades and the Inquisitions? That sanctioned
witch hunts and executions? The Church that
'punished' vile pedophiles by transferring them to
another diocese and sweeping the matter under
the rug? That's your god representing himself?
If that god is speaking in your heart, you have
major problems, my friend.