Are people born good?

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July 8th, 2014 at 2:57:01 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
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I think this video should spark lots of good discussion.

Are people basically good?
July 8th, 2014 at 3:36:41 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
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I have to give you an A+ on this one. Padre. I was expecting a video saying how "people are good." My knowlege of history as well as my jobs have shown me otherwise. I thought I was a cynic.

I loved how the guy said that people who beleive poverty causes crime believes people are good. The same group believe guns cause violence and not people.

I look at the world and sad to say I see a sea of bad surrounded by a few islands of good. There is some good in the bad and some bad in the good, but bad is all around. Read some of the divorce cases I read if you want to see bad.

Lets think about what most religions offer as their selling proposition--is it not "salvation?" Why would a good person need to be saved?
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
July 9th, 2014 at 12:54:42 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 116
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Quote: FrGamble
I think this video should spark lots of good discussion.

Are people basically good?


It would be impossible to do the following experiment, but I propose that if you repeatedly left groups of children on a island, with a resource to keep them alive while they grow up and learn their own methods to survive, that as a group they would mostly neither lean toward total evil or good.

Oh, sometimes the different groups would perish, perhaps through some kids demented ideas, but other times they would recognize the benefits of cooperation.

On the whole I believe it would prove only that there is neither inherent good OR evil. That people who can learn gravitate towards survival -- that is what would come through. People don't gravitate to making concentration camps and naturally performing other evil though in some instances of the experiment evil things might rule the day of some groups but not others)

I'm talking about children young enough not to have mentorship influences when they start out.

Of course, there is no way to carry out the experiment, which should be repeated several times with several groups.

(and yes, I'm aware of Lord of the Flies -- but it would have been a boring story without drama and conflict, or if not that, humor or some other means to drive the reader/viewers interest book/movie)
No one has ever proven I am not God.
July 9th, 2014 at 1:01:04 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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...in conclusion I can agree with his premise, but can't agree with what I suspect he wants to imply from it. My premise is survival is the primary motivation. Evil is sometimes, but not always incidental to that.
No one has ever proven I am not God.
July 9th, 2014 at 2:28:32 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
Posts: 6203
Quote: rxwine


It would be impossible to do the following experiment, but I propose that if you repeatedly left groups of children on a island, with a resource to keep them alive while they grow up and learn their own methods to survive, that as a group they would mostly neither lean toward total evil or good.


Here is what I don't get about the premise here--why does it need to be children on an island? We have societies all over the world to look at. We have them from history to look at. We can see what happened.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
July 9th, 2014 at 6:53:07 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 312
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Quote: rxwine
Of course, there is no way to carry out the experiment, which should be repeated several times with several groups.


How about a different, but similar, experiment, where you set up semi-isoalted groups of people in several places and see how they develop in time?

That has been done, or rather that has happened repeatedly. Much of it is poorly documented, alas, though some of it, like the colonies set up in the Americas by Europeans, are very well documented.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
July 9th, 2014 at 7:49:45 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 116
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Quote: Nareed
How about a different, but similar, experiment, where you set up semi-isoalted groups of people in several places and see how they develop in time?

That has been done, or rather that has happened repeatedly. Much of it is poorly documented, alas, though some of it, like the colonies set up in the Americas by Europeans, are very well documented.


I was trying to formulate conditions for no outside influence. Most of these people brought along ideas already formed about life from wherever they came from or had paternal figures come with them influencing them with their background.

It's (AFAIK) almost always a minority in any community representing evil. Doesn't matter what god. Doesn't matter in the middle of an atheistic country.

Every community I have been in always has large groups of people that act in hospitable manners when they are not under the influence of nutcase religions and dictatorships and don't automatically assign people enemy status by who they are or where they come from.

I don't believe people are born inherently good. But they are born with the instinct to survive, and that may confuse some as being evil. I believe without any outside influences at all (such as island children) the general state will approach an average of neutrality. The successful groups will be neither too evil acting or good acting.

We aren't born in sin; we need no salvation.

If you watch the news every night, you might think it is evil everywhere. They could show 30 minutes of people doing nothing terrible just as easily as that is going on everywhere. Here's Joe sitting on the porch for 2 minutes. Here's people shopping at a market for 2 minutes. That's the Earth, actually as it mostly is everywhere most of the time.
No one has ever proven I am not God.
July 9th, 2014 at 8:05:50 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
Posts: 6203
Quote: rxwine


We aren't born in sin; we need no salvation.

If you watch the news every night, you might think it is evil everywhere. They could show 30 minutes of people doing nothing terrible just as easily as that is going on everywhere. Here's Joe sitting on the porch for 2 minutes. Here's people shopping at a market for 2 minutes. That's the Earth, actually as it mostly is everywhere most of the time.


Just because someone is not "evil" 24/7 does not make them good. Did Jerry Sandusky sit on his porch, quietly?

To me the proof of people being born evil is that we have to raise kids to be good. Look at society and the kids without strong role models are the ones in more trouble with the law, the ones raised in good, two-parent homes are not nearly as much. Neighborhoods with few good role-models are most often the ones that are trashed, back in the day when there were more role models there were more guys showing a good example neighborhoods were in better shape.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
July 9th, 2014 at 8:14:07 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 312
Posts: 10550
Quote: rxwine
We aren't born in sin; we need no salvation.


Agreed.

Hwoever, your definition of a good person may differ from that of some groups.

Suppose a man lives his life quieatly, does his work, collects a salary, does right by his wife and children, doesn't get into trouble with the law, has some friends, has good relations with hsi neighbors, behaves mannerly with strangers, etc. I'd consider such a person good, whether or not he goes to church, whether or not he keeps kosher, whether or not he donates to charity, etc. Other people would brand him as bad, or even evil, if he fails at one of these things.

Quote:
They could show 30 minutes of people doing nothing terrible just as easily as that is going on everywhere. Here's Joe sitting on the porch for 2 minutes. Here's people shopping at a market for 2 minutes. That's the Earth, actually as it mostly is everywhere most of the time.


By definition poeple behaving normally and not causing trouble is not news. Think of the news as the highlight reel of the world. In the highlight reel you see very few runs up the middle for a 2 yard gain.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
July 9th, 2014 at 8:29:22 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 116
Posts: 4759
Quote: AZDuffman
To me the proof of people being born evil is that we have to raise kids to be good. .


Well, that's why you have to do an island experiment with kids. With no role models young kids would only have each other to model from. What you're saying, is they automatically turn to evil as they are born evil.

I say, the groups would end up all different ways. Some would self destruct, but other groups would find more constructive paths. I say the most successful groups end up somewhere in the middle. No way to construct the experiment.

Kids born from the same parents are all different in some ways. Even identical twins have some behavioral differences.
No one has ever proven I am not God.
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