Are people born good?

Quote: Wizard

We agree on another thing.

I used to work at a summer camp for "troubled" teenagers. Some of them were decent kids who just made some bad decisions and their parents were looking to give them a little "tough love." Others were just born bad. You could see it in their eyes.

I may write about this camp experience sometime.

I would for one like to hear about your camp experience. I have a friend or two that works with troubled yutes and they agree with your view. I know I agree just from what I saw growing up. In school there were the kids that goofed off and the ones that you could see were dangerous, they didn't realize they were doing wrong. I remember one in particular, people still don't believe the story of how he cheated on a test right in the open. The dude was small enough that to look at him he didn't even look tough. But you could be talking to him in an intelligent, friendly conversation one time but the next he was a sociopath maniac.

He committed an arson, something I was told indicates some type of abuse.

Quote: AZDuffman

I would for one like to hear about your camp experience....

Thanks for the request. I started to write about it for my 10,000th post at WoV but the story was turning into a short book so I put the project on hold. Maybe post number 15,000.

In my experience at camp the truly bad kids ran the gamut in terms of intelligence. However, the thing they had in common wasn't just not caring about others but overtly taking pleasure in causing others pain.

Quote: Wizard

However, the thing they had in common wasn't just not caring about others but overtly taking pleasure in causing others pain.

I hate the bullies I had in my school to
this day. The fool who said, stand up to
a bully and he'll run away, should be
horse whipped. The bullies in my school
beat the living shit out of any kid who
'stood up' to them. I suspect it was that
way everywhere. The only pleasure I got
was, all the bullies in my class didn't
graduate with my class. They flunked too
many classes. lol

Quote: Wizard

In my experience at camp the truly bad kids ran the gamut in terms of intelligence. However, the thing they had in common wasn't just not caring about others but overtly taking pleasure in causing others pain.

I have read several mafia books, and that is one of the themes that divides common criminals from the ones who rise to the top. In Las Vegas, Tony Spilotro was feared not because we was a big guy. He wasn't. But he had no qualms about causing others pain, doing it instantly, then moving on. Even guys who are bigger or stronger will fear said guys because the stronger guy knows he himself might not have the guts to do said terrible things, or at least not do them so fast.

The kid I was mentioning before was one you could see it in his eyes. We were taking a test and he asked if an answer was in our notes. Shop teacher says it is if we took good notes. So he opens his notebook right then and there. He was just a few feet right in front of the teacher. He did it without caring. The look on the teacher's face, the only thing I can compare it to is when Sean Penn ordered the pizza in "Fast Times at Rigemont High.

Even the "burnouts," which was half the class, were looking in disbelief. It got worse because the kid acted as though he did nothing wrong. So the teacher says he is getting an "F." Then he says, "fine, I won't bother taking it then" as though the teacher is wrong. The teacher was one of those calm as anything shop teachers but one who would go ballistic if you crossed the line just because the line was so far and he gave so much leeway.

About five days before the end of the year the kid's mom had him locked up in juvie hall. Not sure how, either revoked what kids get for bail or had him arrested for domestic violence. He had done enough other things in class and home that everyone, again even the burnouts, knew he was in that 1% of the population that is dangerous and that you are not going to fix no matter what.

Are people born good....???

Well, not in Ireland apparantly and not in the view of the Catholic church.

Mass graves of up to 800 infants found in the sewers of a former Catholic home for unwed mothers in Ireland.
Local historian may not be viewed as hero for his dogged efforts since graves may extend under local homeowners basements.

Did the nuns view those born out of wedlock as 'good'? So many corpses that the sewers get clogged seems to reflect an official policy of the Catholic Church or atleast a long-standing tradition.

Quote: Fleastiff

Are people born good....???

Well, not in Ireland apparantly and not in the view of the Catholic church.

Mass graves of up to 800 infants found in the sewers of a former Catholic home for unwed mothers in Ireland.
Local historian may not be viewed as hero for his dogged efforts since graves may extend under local homeowners basements.

Did the nuns view those born out of wedlock as 'good'? So many corpses that the sewers get clogged seems to reflect an official policy of the Catholic Church or atleast a long-standing tradition.

there is an assumption we can quickly make here that is probably not correct

you might be getting an image of murderous nuns, but the issue is more likely about proper care and nutrition, control of disease, and neglect. Primarily the issue I think is improper burial.

Quote: link

Corless’s research found that infant mortality at the home in Tuam was particularly high. Records for that home show that babies died at the rate of two per week from malnutrition and neglect, and from diseases such as measles and gastroenteritis...

I don't see any suspicion about murder or abortion in the article. However, I may be the only person thinking that such an implication springs to mind with such a story?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/04/irish-excavation-confirms-mass-grave-of-babies-toddlers-at-former-home-for-unwed-mothers/?utm_term=.2b0e027fbd95

Quote: odiousgambit

there is an assumption we can quickly make here that is probably not correct

you might be getting an image of murderous nuns, but the issue is more likely about proper care and nutrition, control of disease, and neglect. Primarily the issue I think is improper burial.

I don't see any suspicion about murder or abortion in the article. However, I may be the only person thinking that such an implication springs to mind with such a story?

Whoa there. Let us remember that in Ireland Improper Burial is a very serious criminal offense. Remember that in Ireland it is more serious to be charged with smuggling of condoms than with smuggling of heroin or cocaine.

Now if those non-murderous nuns had sufficient funds to take out bogus newspaper advertisements they would have had sufficient funds for bleach, medicines, foodstuffs, etc. The numbers are high, the capacity of the home was not all that great and the death rate seems to have been excessive. Nutrition? The nuns did not appear to be unusually thin, so food was available for the nuns. It may have not been available for infants, I don't know but it was available to the nuns in sufficient quantity.

Disease? It seems to have been a very selective disease. If the mortality was so high, where are all those who became very ill but who did not actually die? Even the dreaded cholera only kills 40 percent of a population. No records reflect doctors being summoned for the sick.

With the persistent stonewalling by the authorities I would suggest that you should not be so readily dismissive of thoughts about wrongdoing.

Abortion? Where did that come from?

Quote: Fleastiff

Abortion? Where did that come from?

my fevered brain.

Quote: Fleastiff

Whoa there. Let us remember that in Ireland Improper Burial is a very serious criminal offense.

at least something that would severely shock proper Catholic sensibility. Were all the kids baptized whether they were to live or die? That might seem a silly question to some as well, trust me it is not.

Quote:

Now if those non-murderous nuns had sufficient funds to take out bogus newspaper advertisements ...

Were they murderous? They took out ads? Where does all this come from?

Quote:

Disease? It seems to have been a very selective disease. If the mortality was so high, where are all those who became very ill but who did not actually die?

And what is the suggestion here? They were sold into slavery?

I am not Roman Catholic btw, don't have a need to defend that religion, and will accept that evil things were happening short of murder.

Quote: odiousgambit

my fevered brain.

Want to compare temperatures? I will win every time.

>> at least something that would severely shock proper Catholic sensibility..
Actually a veryserious crime in Ireland!

>>>> Were they murderous? They took out ads? Where does all this come from?
The historical records of the local press indicate there were invitations to supply bids to local coffin makers, but no such coffins were ever used, so the local paper ran the notices but no contracts were ever actually awarded.

>>>>And what is the suggestion here? They were sold into slavery?
No, but it would seem that its a strange disease that behaves in such a manner.

>>>>>I am not Roman Catholic btw, don't have a need to defend that religion, and will accept that evil things were happening short of murder.
Perhaps you are correct and the only selection process was a natural and unaided one. Perhaps not.