The Ten Worst Passenger Planes Still In Service

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August 13th, 2014 at 1:41:29 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11319
It seems since airlines and and manufactureres had to give up supersonic speeds, they're making it up by increasing range.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 13th, 2014 at 5:50:28 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 735
Posts: 8556
Quote: DRich
I had no idea the range of a 738 was over 3200 miles and I was on one last week.


The ranges in statute miles listed on the Boeing website are unbelievably long
3,958 Range 737-700
6,645 Range 737-700 ER
3,778 Range 737-700 C
3,582 Range 737-800
3,722 Range 737-900 ER

But for all I know those calculations are for no passengers and in a tailwind. If a 737-700 could really go over 6K miles, you would think that they would use them for Transatlantic runs. The St John's Newfoundland to Dublin is a very short Transatlantic run, but it uses a 737.

The longest runs in a 737 for a US airline is Alaska air from Seattle to Fort Lauderdale (2,709 miles )and (2,777 miles) Anchorage-Hawaii. But that may just be American geography. The really long single aisle jet runs (like Newark to Stockholm and Atlanta to Brasilia) are done with Boeing 757's.

The following distances are listed in Wikipedia as maximum nonstop for each model
Boeing 737-700 Montevideo to Panama City 3,385 miles Copa Airlines CM 284
Boeing 737-700ER Tokyo to Mumbai 4,223 miles All Nippon Airways NH 943
Boeing 737-800 Frankfurt to Pune 4,159 miles PrivatAir PT 768
Boeing 737-900 Boston to San Francisco 2,704 miles United Airlines Various
Boeing 737-900ER Istanbul to Dar es Salaam 3,357 miles Turkish Airlines TK 603

I know that Frankfurt to Pune on PrivatAir is an executive flight with very few seats.

There is a point where the airplane will technically go the distance, but you end up carrying several times the weight of the passengers and luggage in fuel. It becomes very economically inefficient. Singapore Airlines had the nonstop commercial polar flights to Singapore from LAX (8,770 miles) and EWR (Newark)( 9,535 miles) which they ran for almost a decade. At one point they turned the plane into an all business class. The website listed the A340-500 as capable of 9,980 miles. But the plane was taking off with 10X the weight of the passengers and cargo ( 400,000 lbs) in fuel. A total of 100 passengers with 400 lbs per psgr is 40,000 lbs. Tickets were too expensive, and they couldn't find the customers. As of last year, the LAX-SIN flight stops in Tokyo, and NYC-SIN flight stops in Frankfurt.

I don't think that Boeing will build a replacement for the 757. They only sold a thousand of those jets, and they already have a thousand orders for the 787. Why should they eat into profits. Over half the 757's are still in the USA.

Delta Air Lines - 167
United Airlines - 153
American Airlines - 103
US Airways - 24
National Airlines (N7) - 19
Allegiant Air - 6

United Parcel Service - 75
FedEx Express - 72 including 5 operated by subsidiary Canada Morningstar Air Express
August 14th, 2014 at 8:56:41 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11319
I'm not sure I've ever flown in a 757. the design seemed odd to begin with.

I have flown, as near as I recall, in the following:

DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, A-319/320/321 (all of them), B-727, B717 (what Boeing renamed the DC-9), B-707, B-737, B-747, B-767 (once!) and L-1011 (twice!). Also one Embraer, but I forget its model number.

Among some oddities I recall, some DC-9s had integrated stairways on the front passenger door. The B-727 had a stairway for a door on the back, between the three engines. Though I flew on B-747s four times, I never saw the upper deck of any of them.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 14th, 2014 at 12:27:48 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 735
Posts: 8556
Quote: Nareed
I'm not sure I've ever flown in a 757. the design seemed odd to begin with.


They are popular as head of state aircraft in the late 80's (because of their range). The President of Mexico has the only B757 ever sold in Mexico. His will be replaced with the modified B787, which at $600 million is the most expensive single jet ever delivered. Although that sum is higher than the individual prices of the Air Force one modified 747's delivered in 1990, I am sure they spent a billion on electronics for AF-1.

The Vice President and Secretary of State of USA have one, certainly because of their range.

Orders for the 757 dropped like a stone after 9-11 as massive fluctuations in travel demand meant that the airlines wanted less expensive jets. The last one was delivered in 2005.

I am almost certain that the allowable seating on a 757-300 (289 one-class) is the largest for any single aisle jet.
August 14th, 2014 at 12:45:08 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11319
Quote: Pacomartin
His will be replaced with the modified B787, which at $600 million is the most expensive single jet ever delivered.


Great. I expect a tantrum in the media shortly...

Quote:
Although that sum is higher than the individual prices of the Air Force one modified 747's delivered in 1990, I am sure they spent a billion on electronics for AF-1.


Not to mention it very likely also carries countermeasures against missiles. Operational costs must be astronomical, too, if you include drilling the pilots and crew frequently 8they're Air Force, they have to drill while not flying the boss around). Plus there are at least two such planes, maybe more. Mexico's president likely will only have one.

Oh, and I hear the Air Force will not consider a presidential airplane with less than four engines. The Marines, though, make do with one for the presidential helicopter.

Anyway, the 757 seemed like a replacement for the 707, and therefore like a throwback to the early jet era.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 14th, 2014 at 7:51:13 PM permalink
boymimbo
Member since: Mar 25, 2013
Threads: 5
Posts: 619
Boeing sold 1,050 757s the last being in 2005.
August 14th, 2014 at 8:43:49 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 735
Posts: 8556
Quote: Nareed
Great. I expect a tantrum in the media shortly...

tantrum
Too late. The president of Brazil usually flies around in Embraer's (of course), but he has a modified A319 for longer flights. considerably less grand than a widebody.
Quote: Nareed

Not to mention it very likely also carries countermeasures against missiles. Operational costs must be astronomical, too, if you include drilling the pilots and crew frequently 8they're Air Force, they have to drill while not flying the boss around). Plus there are at least two such planes, maybe more. Mexico's president likely will only have one.

The Mexican presidential jet will have countermeasures against missiles. Operational costs will be high. But there will only be a single jet
Quote: Nareed
Oh, and I hear the Air Force will not consider a presidential airplane with less than four engines. The Marines, though, make do with one for the presidential helicopter.

There are a lot of people that are terrified that they will buy an Airbus 380 to replace the 747's currently in use. I don't think a 787 will be deemed big enough. The four engine requirement is probably sufficient to ensure that 747's will be the replacements.
Quote: Nareed

Anyway, the 757 seemed like a replacement for the 707, and therefore like a throwback to the early jet era.

The last 707 was produced in 1979. The 757 was officially designated in March 1979. So you are correct that it was intended as a replacement for the 707. By forcing the airlines to ignore long haul routes with single aisle jets, it may be more profitable to Boeing.

Quote: boymimbo
Boeing sold 1,050 757s the last being in 2005.


Boeing has
1,057 orders for the 787 (of which 170 have been delivered).
1,641 orders for the 777 (of which 1074 have been delivered).

4693 orders for the 737-800 (of which 3317 have been delivered).
69 orders for the 737-800A (of which 35 have been delivered).
2159 orders for the 737 MAX (yet to be produced)

Most of the the 757 routes can be replaced with a 737 MAX. If Boeing develops a single aisle jet capable of long range flight (well over 6 hours), they may eat into their own profits on the widebodies.
August 15th, 2014 at 9:22:41 PM permalink
boymimbo
Member since: Mar 25, 2013
Threads: 5
Posts: 619
I could never see Americans buying technology for Air Force 1 from Airbus, Bombardier, or Embrauer. It'll be the 747 or the 380 competitor in 15 years time.
August 15th, 2014 at 10:45:55 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 735
Posts: 8556
Quote: boymimbo
I could never see Americans buying technology for Air Force 1 from Airbus.


Well airbus didn't even bid for the contract for the new president's planes (three of them this time). But there was a time when it was clear that Boeing was not going to build a competitor to the Airbus 380 that some people feared that the natural tendency to want to buy bigger would force the Air Force to consider the Airbus jet.


Airbus A380 has 40% more usable floor space than a Boeing 747-8.
November 8th, 2016 at 12:22:21 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 735
Posts: 8556
Quote: DRich
Allegiant Airlines has been successful using the Md80 as it primary plane. I heard at one time they were buying them for between $2-$4 million apiece. At that price who cares how inefficient they are and how often they need to be serviced.


Quote: NATHANIEL LASH, WILLIAM R. LEVESQUE and ANTHONY CORMIER Tampa Bay Times Staff Writers

BREAKDOWN AT 30,000 FEET Nov. 2, 2016
All major airlines break down once in awhile. But none of them break down in midair more often than Allegiant.

A Tampa Bay Times investigation which included a first-of-its kind analysis of federal aviation records has found that the budget carrier's planes are four times as likely to fail during flight as those operated by other major U.S. airlines.
http://www.tampabay.com/projects/2016/investigations/allegiant-air/mechanical-breakdowns/


Allegiant intends to phase out 50 of it's older aircraft by 2020 and have a fleet of Airbus A320 Family aircraft
4 Boeing 757200 to be phased out by early 2017
40 McDonnell Douglas MD-83
6 McDonnell Douglas MD-88

You don't see as many low cost airlines using older jets these days. The preference now is to fly with newer jets.

Although Allegiant is known as a Las Vegas airline by most people most of their flights go to central Florida, which explains the motivation for a Tampa Bay Times article.
1 Orlando (SFB) 155 weekly flights
2 Las Vegas (LAS) 144 weekly flights
3 St. Petersburg/Clearwater (PIE) 111 weekly flights
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