High Speed Trains are Killing the European Railway Network

Quote: Pacomartin

It is not a slam dunk. I imagine the Mexico City- Queretaro route will work OK because there is a lot of money moving back and forth.

But I would hope that they could get the average speed up above 95-105 kph. That's pretty slow.

It's hard to say. The highway to Queretaro, unlike most highways out of Mex City, runs very straight with few curves. On the other hand there are frequent uphill segments, followed shortly by downhill ones. It gets more hilly past Queretaro, but still with few curves. trains don't climb well.

The problem is the number of stops. It's about 350 km to Guanajuato, say 400 or so to Leon. at an average of 160 kph, that would cut the time considerably. but can you do that on this terrain with the stops I outlined? How long for each stop? I can easily see the train mired for 20-30 minutes in every stop while passengers disembark and their luggage is removed from the train, and as passengers get in and their luggage is loaded.

Let's assume it can all be handled in 15 minutes. With that many stops, a minimum of 1:30 are added to the trip. A 320 kph train might still pull off a decent average speed, if it can handle the terrain. Other "high speed" trains are slower to begin with. So a train cruising at 150 kps with that many stops would get to Leon in 4 hours, same as driving

IMO trains work rather well in short, intra-city routes (subways), and that only because they can avoid traffic. For inter-city travel, either driving or flying works best these days

Acela Express trains are the fastest trainsets in the Americas; the highest speed they attain is 240 km/h. This speed is considerably faster than normal passenger trains (class 4 track) that cannot exceed 129 km/hr.

The one intercity trip in the USA that the train makes the most sense is the NYC to Philadelphia run. It is way to short to fly, and heavy traffic and the lack of car ownership by most New Yorkers means that driving a personal car, renting a car, or taking a bus is unpleasant.

But since the train makes up to three stops, the Acela Express saves you between 5 and 14 minutes of travel time. For this speed increase you pay nearly double. They try and make it a nicer train, with more power plugs and places to put your laptop, but the Xpress ticket is still more than an upgraded seat premium seat on a regular train.

NE Regional 5:30am (83 minutes travel time) $53 & $79
Acela Express 6:00A (78 minutes travel time) $99 & $174
NE Regional 6:10A (92 minutes travel time) $53 & $79
16+12+28+27=83 minutes
15+13+26+20=78 minutes
16+15+34+27=92 minutes

The first two segments are too short to even be able to take advantage of the higher speed trainset.

So like the guy writing the article you save 6% to 15% in time, but you pay 87% more in fare.

Even on the longer NYC to Washington DC you reduce from 3:22 to 2:50 (still only 16%)

Quote: Pacomartin

So like the guy writing the article you save 6% to 15% in time, but you pay 87% more in fare.

Even on the longer NYC to Washington DC you reduce from 3:22 to 2:50 (still only 16%)

My point exactly: for high speed trains you cannot make stops. Not if you want the benefits of the high speed.

MEX-LAS is about 3:40 gate-to-gate, no stops. Suppose we resurrected the Concorde, allowed it to fly supersonic over land, and sent it MEX-Bajio-Guadalajara-Durango-Phoenix-Las Vegas, at top speed. I assure you it would take far more than 3:40 to do so. Even a more reasonable route, say MEX-Queretaro-san Luis Potosi-Saltillo-Monterrey-Phoenix-Las Vegas, probably would take as long, too.

Quote: Pacomartin

High Speed Trains are Killing the European Railway Network from Low Tech Magazine

The author promised his readers he would not fly 5 years ago. He traveled across Europe almost exclusively by train (apart from the occasional boat trip), good for some 70,000 km of long-distance travel.

He bemoans many of the high speed rail links as having doubled the price of a rail trip while giving 25% more speed. Popular overnight trains that have been running for 40 years are being abandoned. As high speed rail usually means new tracks and certainly means limited stops, many of his old routes are now impossible.

The conclusion is that the middle class in Europe are now crowded into low cost air transit, while the upper class are now taking trains, thus reversing the status of decades ago. It's like the 1950's when the classes for transatlantic travel switched, so that middle class people took airlines and only the rich took a ship.

This was exactly my (surprising to me!) experience last year in Europe, my first trip. I had expected to buy a Eurorail pass and go Barcelona-Paris via Marseilles, Monte Carlo, Florence and in through Provencal, taking about 6 days to do it. Not even close to affordable. I ended up 2 days in Barcelona, 5 in Paris (and certainly nothing to complain about) via air for less than 200 Euro, where the other would have been more than 1000 Euro. Even the overnight train to Paris was over 300 Euro and took 12 hours.

For decades, I had planned on going everywhere over there by train. Guess I waited too long to get there. Half the point would have been the chance to look out the window at the different routes.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I had expected to buy a Eurorail pass and go Barcelona-Paris via Marseilles, Monte Carlo, Florence and in through Provencal, taking about 6 days to do it. Not even close to affordable. I ended up 2 days in Barcelona, 5 in Paris (and certainly nothing to complain about) via air for less than 200 Euro, where the other would have been more than 1000 Euro.

Even the overnight train to Paris was over 300 Euro and took 12 hours.

According to the article the overnight train to Paris was €70 to €140 before it was cancelled in Dec 2013.

Quote: Kris De Decker

Trenhotel Joan Miró. This very popular train ran daily in both directions and covered the distance in about 12 hours, leaving around 20h30 in evening and arriving around 08h30 in morning. It was introduced in 1974, and received its present name and rolling stock in 1991.Again, this is not the time to marvel about the comfortable cabins, the linen table clothing in the dining car, or the many friends I have made on this trip. Let's just look at the numbers. The fare for a one-way trip on the Trenhotel Joan Miró was between €70 (ordered more than two weeks in advance) and €140 euro (ordered shortly before departure).

We have certain visions of Europe from stories told to us that are not true. One of them was about Eurail passes where people would simply take a train if they didn't have money for a hotel.

Another one is the big Italian momma with a half a dozen children pulling at her skirt. You go to Italy today and all the women are skinny with zero or one child that they had in their late 30's.

Quote: Pacomartin

We have certain visions of Europe from stories told to us that are not true.

I seem to remember that Disney hired a French firm when it built a "Le Disneyland" near Paris or something. It was to show them the cultural differences so they could build for the French rather the US customer.

It was of course absurd, but the French wound up with a Disneyland wherein bus drivers had no need for bathrooms. Cultural differences? Changes over time?

NYC residents going to Poughkipsie area resorts used to limp along on the local trains or else take a high speed train to Canada or Chicago and get off at the first stop.

Now it seems high speed is a slogan only and every mayor along the route wants a stop on the Limited and a sign on the Freeway.

Buses carry weirdos, winos and whackos. Trains carry a more varied mixture but always at inconvenient times and high prices.

Quote: Fleastiff

Now it seems high speed is a slogan only and every mayor along the route wants a stop on the Limited and a sign on the Freeway.

News Room Beijing, China, September 17, 2015 - Las Vegas, Nevada, September 18, 2015
China Railway International USA CO., LTD. and XpressWest have agreed to form a joint venture that will accelerate the launch of the XpressWest rail project connecting Las Vegas, Nevada to Los Angeles, California (the “Southwest Rail Network”). Supported by $100 Million in initial capital, this new high-speed rail line (approximately 370 km(s) in length) with construction planned to commence as early as September 2016.

XpressWest will utilize fully electric, next generation train rolling stock capable of speeds in excess of 150 MPH that will deliver passengers to Las Vegas in 80 minutes with non-stop service every 20 minutes during peak times and up to every 12 minutes as demand requires.

What do you think? Will it happen in a few months?

I imagine that most of the lawyers and most of the money will be mired down in the first 25 miles and last 15 miles. If they are on the freeway right of way in the middle that will save them from dealing with multiple jurisdictions each of them wanting to have the trains stop for their town.

Query: How many passengers will be Gamblers, Eaters, Gawkers, Hookers? Of the Gamblers, how many will have a bank roll of interest to the casinos?

Quote: Pacomartin

XpressWest will utilize fully electric, next generation train rolling stock capable of speeds in excess of 150 MPH that will deliver passengers to Las Vegas in 80 minutes with non-stop service every 20 minutes during peak times and up to every 12 minutes as demand requires.

Is there near that much demand.

Quote: AZDuffman

I there near that much demand.

The prediction is that XpressWest will divert over 2 million annual automobile trips from the I-15.
The California police could increase ridership by simply enforcing 55 mph speed limits. A lot of people speed up to 90-100 mph on that road when it isn't busy.

The 186 mi trip from Victorville to Las Vegas should take about 84 minutes. That may save an hour on average day and save you gasoline. But then you add in $89 per person for the round trip fare, and factor in the time waiting for the train.

The biggest problem is that many people like to have a car in Vegas.

VIP service involving helicopters flying from places in LA to Victorville may make the train more attractive.