Airbus 380

As we have hit over a hundred posts on this topic, perhaps a recap is in order.

In late 2000 (30 years since first Boeing 747 commercial flight) armed with over 50 orders from six customers Airbus set out to build the superjumbo. In the 1990's they had briefly partnered with Boeing to cooperate on this project knowing that the market was necessarily limited. Publicly they hoped for 700-1000 sales, but said that 250 would be the break even point.

With 153 airframes delivered to 13 customers by the end of 2014, (58 to Emirates Airline) the program will probably produce a catastrophic loss. Customers are now clamoring for a neoA380 with new engines and better fuel economy, with Emirates promising a firm order of 100 jets as incentive for Airbus to start work on the neo380..

Airbus has now built the supersonic, the superjumbo, and the supersteep ascent aircraft sometimes called the "baby bus". They also built the A340 which is very popular with governments for it's extremely long range. All four programs have been to various degrees disasters. The competitor to the B737, the A320 seems to be a massive success, but Canada, Russia, Brazil, China and Japan have development programs to produce 100 - 140 passenger jets.

Theoretically if you were to pack these jets at maximum capacity, then you would have about 100-110 gallons per seat with a full tank which is a fairly efficient amount of fuel to fly over 8000 miles.

Airframe	Seats max	gallons/seat
A380	853	100
777-200LR	440	109
A340-500	375	156
A340-500	100	586

But using the A340-500, Singapore Air started the world's longest commercial nonstop from NYC to Singapore on 28 June 2004 they configured the plane with 180 seats (half the maximum), and in 2008 they opted for 100 all business class seats. A full fuel tank now was 586 gallons per seat (10 times the weight of the passengers and their luggage). The inherent inefficiency of burning so much fuel to carry fuel meant that the flight was discontinued on 23 November 2013 as a broad restructuring of Singapore Air's routes in favor of stopovers in intermediate countries for refueling and to exert their 5th freedom rights to sell tickets from the intermediate country to their final destination (notably Tokyo to LAX and Frankfurt to JFK). Airbus agreed to buy back the A340-500's from Singapore Air.



Although Air Austral briefly toyed with the idea of a high density 840 seat configuration for the A380 to fly French passengers from Paris to their island, they seem to be reneging on their firm order to purchase two A380's. In fact the airlines that seem to love the jet, prize it's ability to keep the upper class passengers completely free from economy class, and in some cases reserving the entire upper deck for ultra expensive business and first class. The multiple boarding points are not used for efficiency, but to allow no accidental intermingling between classes.

Now with Qantas and Emirate flying 4 of the 10 longest commercial flights in the world on the A380, there is a possibility of the airframe growing more popular.
1 Dallas/Fort Worth - Sydney Qantas QF 8 (8,578 miles) 29 September 2014
4 Dubai-International - Los Angeles Emirates EK 215 (8,339 miles) 26 October 2008
6 Dubai-International - Houston:Intercontinental Emirates EK 211 (8,168 miles) 3 December 2007
9 Dubai-International - San Francisco Emirates EK 225 (8,103 miles) 15 December 2008

Quote: Pacomartin

But using the A340-500, Singapore Air started the world's longest commercial nonstop from NYC to Singapore on 28 June 2004 they configured the plane with 180 seats (half the maximum), and in 2008 they opted for 100 all business class seats. A full fuel tank now was 586 gallons per seat (10 times the weight of the passengers and their luggage). The inherent inefficiency of burning so much fuel to carry fuel meant that the flight was discontinued on 23 November 2013 as a broad restructuring of Singapore Air's routes in favor of stopovers in intermediate countries for refueling and to exert their 5th freedom rights to sell tickets from the intermediate country to their final destination (notably Tokyo to LAX and Frankfurt to JFK). Airbus agreed to buy back the A340-500's from Singapore Air.

It happens over and over. An aircraft manufacturer shows their neat, new plane with room for a piano bar and a pool. An airline says they will make a nice, luxury flight with all kinds of extras. And each misses the point that the way to make as much money as possible it to simply cram in as many people as possible.

Yes, some fliers want the extras, but this number is the minority. And some fliers who want extras pay near enough to just fly private charters at some point as some are so high up they either need an entourage with them or travel in groups (think auto and banking execs.)

How much of the public would rather flying be like sedation dentistry, the airline just gives you a pill so you forget the whole experience?

Quote: AZDuffman

How much of the public would rather flying be like sedation dentistry, the airline just gives you a pill so you forget the whole experience?

I don't think the airlines care much about the public, except perhaps their public.

The Emirates have a public that includes the bar, piano .... let their shadow not touch mine crowd.

Hauling gasoline. I understand that RyanAir actually forces its pilots to fly with minimal fuel and publishes a Worst Pilot list composed of those who take on more fuel than they actually need.
Of course if prices do come down, its less and less of a concern. None of this drop the comma from the safety card and we will fly 400 ton-miles of ink less each year.

I wonder if the question might best be answered in the pilot lounges... which planes make aspiring young pilots building hours drool the most?

Which planes make the passengers opt for that Duffman Pill and look for sign when they land that reads "Cattle Showers".

I think a portion of the Recapitulation was poorly worded. I'm sure the Emirates are in favor of the New and Improved version that the industry in general wants rather than the Unimproved version.

Its just the map of the world changes. The world used to be USA, UK and Western Europe. Now the Middle East and Far East are very much part of the World and even Africa is getting international traffic that doesn't consist of cartridges. What airlines do those ten thousand dollars a week per person Eco-Safari lounges want? Their customers arrive by bush plane for the last part of the journey but what plane would they vote for if they decided what the entire journey would be like?

Bring back the DeHavilland, the 707 and the Grand Caravan.

Quote: Fleastiff

The Emirates have a public that includes the bar, piano .... let their shadow not touch mine crowd.

And showers in first class.

At 427 in the lower level, Emirates has come as close to the maximum of 535 permitted of any airline that flies the A380.

With 14 closed suites and 76 flat bed seats on the upper level it is a study in inefficiency (and also a study in exclusivity). They designed a special terminal just for the A380, so that there are ramps for the upper deck. I always thought airlines worried about the time it takes to unload and then reboard?

Quote: Fleastiff

Hauling gasoline. I understand that RyanAir actually forces its pilots to fly with minimal fuel and publishes a Worst Pilot list composed of those who take on more fuel than they actually need.

Spain outed Ryan Air publicly as creating safety hazard in effort to penny pinch. I seem to remember that a pilot was fired from the Concorde program for landing The Queen with less than the mandated amount of safety fuel. I suppose he was supposed to land in Gander Newfoundland and take on more fuel.

Quote: Fleastiff

I think a portion of the Recapitulation was poorly worded. I'm sure the Emirates are in favor of the New and Improved version that the industry in general wants rather than the Unimproved version.

Everybody wants things, but what will they pay for?
Emirates surprised people on 17 November 2013 by upping their total order of 90 A380's (current configuration) to 140 total (instead of the expected 120). But there had been only 5 orders in the previous two years.

Emirates will not try and get out of their order for 140 total deliveries of the current version. But they are not going to order anymore without the improved efficiency of new engines. As an incentive to Airbus they have offered to make firm order for 100 of the neoA380's which may have capacity for up to 1000 seats.

Quote: Fleastiff

Bring back the DeHavilland, the 707 and the Grand Caravan.

I always thought an executive Grand Caravan would be useful to more companies.


I thought the President of Ireland used to have a Grand Caravan for domestic travel. But wikipedia says they havea Gulfstream IV and a Learjet 45. I think it makes a good statement if the President flies 150 miles in a Grand Caravan.

You know, reading about the A-380 today, at least as used by some airlines, seems a lot like reading about train travel in the early XX Century or even the very late XIX.

Except trains didn't have showers and planes don't have dining rooms.

Quote: Nareed

You know, reading about the A-380 today, at least as used by some airlines, seems a lot like reading about train travel in the early XX Century or even the very late XIX.
Except trains didn't have showers and planes don't have dining rooms.

Qatar Airways is the first of the three Middle Eastern airlines to fly the A380 that is mixing up some economy seats in the upper deck.


On upper deck
Emirates has 14 closed suites and 76 flat bed seats
Etihad has 9 closed suites 70 flat bed seats + THE RESIDENCE (little apartment with dining room and living room and shower)
Qatar Airways has 8 closed suites 48 flat bed seats and 56 economy seats (6 rows of 8 seats, and 2 rows of 4 seats)

Dubai is the center of the A380 world and home airport for Emirates and Etihad. It is now the stopping place for Qantas on the way to Europe. In miles from DXB these are the airports that are served by Emirates on the A380
(DXB)0 Dubai - Emirates & Etihad
(DOH)238 Doha - Qatar Airways
(KWI)530 Kuwait : short flight
(JED) 1,060 Jeddah : short flight
(BOM)1,200 Mumbai : short flight
(FCO)2,700 Rome
(MUC)2,830 Munich
(MXP)2,928 Milan
(ZRH)2,960 Zurich
(FRA)3,010 Frankfurt
(BKK) 3,030 Bangkok
(MRU)3,160 Mauritius
(AMS)3,210 Amsterdam
(BCN)3,210 Barcelona
(CDG)3,250 Paris
(LGW)3,400 London
(LHR)3,423 London
(MAN)3,510 Manchester
(PEK) 3,610 Beijing
(SIN) 3,630 Singapore
(HKG)3,690 Hong Kong
(PVG)3,980 Shanghai
(ICN) 4,200 Seoul
(JFK) 6,830 New York
(YYZ) 6,880 Toronto
(MEL)7,230 Melbourne - Australia
(BNE)7,440 Brisbane - Australia
(SYD)7,456 Sydney - Australia
(DFW)8,037 Dallas
(SFO)8,100 San Francisco
(IAH) 8,165 Houston
(LAX) 8,339 Los Angeles
(AKL) 8,833 Auckland - No nonstops, via the three Australian cities first.

Following are the airports that support A380 flights but are not served by Emirates
(ATL) (KE) Atlanta - Korean Air
(CAN) (CZ) Guangzhou - China Southern
(DEL) (LH) Delhi - Lufthansa
(IAD) (BA) Washington Dulles - British Airways
(JNB) (LH) Johannesburg - Lufthansa
(KIX) (TG) Osaka- Thai Airways
(KUL) (MH) Kuala Lumpur - Malaysia Airlines
(MIA) (LH) Miami - Lufthansa
(NRT) (SQ) Narita (Tokyo) - Singapore Air

These are the four airports that do not currently support A380 operations that do the most traffic in international flights over 2000 nautical miles.
Chicago (ORD)
Sao Paulo (GIG)
AbuDhabi (AUH)
Madrid (MAD)

To be fair Airbus doesn't really need more airports, as they are hoping to get more traffic between the current set of airports using the A380.

FedEx has a couple of Grand Caravans based at McCarran in Las Vegas. I don't know where they fly to but I see them coming and going regularly.

I read a report about someone, a travel writer I think, who exchanged a bunch of accumulated frequent flier miles for a suite in an A-380 (I forget which company) for a flight from Asia to London, with at least one stop.

It reads as a wonderful experience, from the very exclusive check-in desk without much of a wait (no mere first class line), to the quality of the food (Jamaican Blue Mountain Coffee), the entertainment options, the "seat" which can become a real bed complete with bed linens, the personalized service, the privacy, the restrooms, etc. and even some extra perks here and there, like being able to select particular meals to be delivered at the stop.

But the price, if memory serves, was around USD $30,000 (which of course the author didn't pay).

Considering the experience lasts less than a day, and what you can buy with that kind of money, I'd rather take a coach seat and some sleeping pills. You'll travel the exact same distance to the same destination for a fraction of the cost.

What I'd love to see is something like Larry Niven's "stasis boxes." Essentially time doesn't pass inside one. For a flight you'd check in your luggage, then step into a stasis box, and immediately (from your perspective) step out again at your destination. Literally in the blink of an eye! You could pack each plane solid.

Of course there are problems with this. If the flight's delayed you won't notice, but you also won't be able to call someone at your destination to let them know. Likewise if your flight is diverted. Cabin crews would be eliminated.

On other upsides, you could eliminate security entirely. Only the pilots would be conscious during the flight. If the plane crashed, you would survive (no time passage means no time to be injured, much less killed) without a scratch (the pilots wouldn't).

But that's more fantasy than science fiction. And likely inertia would be affected, too.

Another thing about the A380.
If you look at the JFK to LHR (one of the busiest intercontinental routes in the world, and you notice how many flights leave between 7 and 10:30 PM. You would think that British Airways would choose this route to fly the A380 on, as it is busy and the redundant flights don't stretch out in time much.

Instead BA chooses to fly their A380 on the London to Washington DC and London to LAX routes.

<----- Means British Airways or American airlines code share

1. 9:30 AM New York JFK 8:15 PM London LHR non-stop 6hr 45min <----- BA DAYTIME ROUTE
2. 7:15 PM New York JFK 6:20 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 5min <----- AA
3. 7:30 PM New York JFK 6:20 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 50min VIRGIN ATLANTIC
4. 7:30 PM New York JFK 6:50 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 20min <----- BA
5. 7:55 PM New York JFK 6:55 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 0min <----- BA
6. 8:00 PM New York JFK 7:05 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 5min DELTA
7. 8:20 PM New York JFK 7:15 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 55min <----- BA
8. 8:30 PM New York JFK 7:35 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 5min <----- AA
9. 9:00 PM New York JFK 7:55 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 55min <----- BA
10. 9:00 PM New York JFK 9:00 AM London LHR non-stop 8hr 0min ( Is it subject to delays?) CHEAP Kuwait Air
11. 9:30 PM New York JFK 9:00 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 30min <----- AA
12. 9:30 PM New York JFK 9:00 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 30min DELTA
13. 9:35 PM New York JFK 8:35 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 0min <----- BA
14. 10:00 PM New York JFK 8:45 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 45min <----- BA
15. 10:30 PM New York JFK 9:20 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 50min <----- BA
16. 10:30 PM New York JFK 9:35 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 5min VIRGIN ATLANTIC
17. 11:30 PM New York JFK 10:30 AM London LHR non-stop 7hr 0min DELTA
18. 12:05 AM New York JFK 11:00 AM London LHR non-stop 6hr 55min <----- BA

This route would seem to be a natural for an A380 as you could eliminate a plane. However, they choose not to fly it with their A380. That tells you the economics of how they choose airframe are not immediately obvious.

Quote: Nareed

You know, reading about the A-380 today, at least as used by some airlines, seems a lot like reading about train travel in the early XX Century or even the very late XIX.

Except trains didn't have showers and planes don't have dining rooms.

I've had a shower on VIA Rail's transcandian service.