Airbus 380

Emirates started Milan-JFK service on Oct. 1, 2013. At the time, the route already had four daily non-stop flights by Alitalia, American, Delta and United (to Newark). On June 1 ,2015, THEY put an Airbus A380, which seats nearly 500 passengers, on the route, replacing a Boeing 777-300ER with 360 seats. It's not just the extra 140 seats, but the 777 had 8 closed suites and 42 flat bed business seats . The A380 14 closed suites and 76 flat bed business seats. So the expensive seats have nearly doubled.

Alitalia is owned 49% by Etihad Airways, Emirate competition from UAE. “Alitalia does not support the allocation of fifth freedom rights,” said an Alitalia spokesman. “In such a case the market should be served by Alitalia – or any interested European carrier – in conjunction with its American partners.” “We don’t work together,” Etihad CEO said. “We don’t lobby together. My fiercest competitor is Emirates. Behind them is Qatar.”

If Emirates tries the same thing in Latin America, I am not sure what the reaction will be. As I said, there is currently no nonstops from Barcelona to Mexico City, so the reaction might even be to welcome Emirates, but it is doubtful that there is enough demand (or Aeromexico would not have dropped the B767 nonstop many years ago).

Quote: terapined

I send a lot of people to all the above cities except Paris and Rome. Rome is very rare for me to book, in Italy its either Milan or Turin. Very rarely do I send people to Paris but I use CDG as a transfer point for skyteam. My biggest destinations on the list for my clients, AMS FRA LHR MAN MXP LIN MUC

Many people think Alitalia permanently put itself on track to bankruptcy by concentrating on Rome instead of Milan. While it is a national carrier, Milan is the far more important city economically.

Given the size of Paris, it is surprising that it is taking a backseat in economic development behind other European cities. Partly it is because they are so ardently against any new construction. New buildings are largely confined to the suburban La Défense (6 miles from center city). Tour Maine-Montparnasse a 689 ft office skyscraper completed in 1973 and, Hyatt Regency Paris Etoile, constructed 1974 are the only building in Paris proper over 400'.

Quote: Pacomartin

Emirates has a controversial route for it's A380 flight from Dubai to Milan, which now continues on to JFK. The controversy is that Emirates has nonstop A380 service from Dubai to JFK already, so the Milan stopover is deeply cutting into the luxury class shared by American, Delta, United and Alitalia.

I'm sure that is just a coincidence and was never the intent of the Emirates or the Lord High Shiek, the Executioner of Competition.

> but if the route has been unable to support a B767 in the past, it is unlikely to support an A380.

Generally, when you think of Boeing..its an airplane manufacturer that sells planes to airlines that try to fly routes at a profit.
Often when you think of Airbus.. its a corporate and government treasury alliance that sells airplanes often to "airlines" that have no need to look at their bottom lines.

the Japanese followed the Innovate then Saturate policy. find a technologically moribund industry, innovate, prevent competition through patent and trade laws, saturate the market by going after market share, not profits until competition is effectively destroyed.

the Emirates seem to want to Hire Everyone, Buy Everything, Fly Everywhere until the words "airline" and "Emirates" are effectively synonyms. the Emirates have no need to look at a bottom line or to make a flight "profitable".

Quote: Fleastiff

Innovate then Saturate policy. find a technologically moribund industry, innovate, prevent competition through patent and trade laws, saturate the market by going after market share, not profits until competition is effectively destroyed.
Emirates seem to want to Hire Everyone, Buy Everything, Fly Everywhere until the words "airline" and "Emirates" are effectively synonyms. the Emirates have no need to look at a bottom line or to make a flight "profitable".

Dubai is now the world's busiest international airport overtaking London Heathrow in 2014.

According to Wikipedia, the JFK-Milan is not among the top 20 busiest Transatlantic Routes. But I am sure the airlines are wondering what is upcoming. As I understand it, the countries involved can prohibit 5th freedom flights, but they may be afraid of new laws or consumer backlash. I see more competition with the EU, where Norwegian airlines are now flying from London to the USA.


"Passengers 2010" "North American Airport" "European Airport"
2,501,546 New York City, JFK London, Heathrow
1,388,367 Los Angeles London, Heathrow
1,110,231 Chicago, O'Hare London, Heathrow
1,065,842 New York City, Newark London, Heathrow
926,239 Toronto, Pearson London, Heathrow
851,728 Boston, Logan London, Heathrow
841,549 San Francisco London, Heathrow
795,014 Miami London, Heathrow
648,400 Orlando London, Gatwick
528,987 Houston London, Heathrow

1,159,089 New York City, JFK Paris, CDG
1,105,007 Montreal, Trudeau Paris, CDG
558,868 Los Angeles Paris, CDG

866,733 Chicago, O'Hare Frankfurt
710,876 New York City, JFK Frankfurt
659,532 Washington DC, Dulles Frankfurt
537,888 San Francisco Frankfurt

690,624 New York City, JFK Madrid

613,971 Detroit Amsterdam

563,129 New York City, JFK Rome

As this data is 5 years old, the JFK-Milan may have surpassed JFK-Rome.

Just out of curiosity...
what would the effect on air route rights be if Norway did indeed adopt Iceland as its 20th county?

Quote: terapined

The flip side.
Tiny planes.
Just sold a ticket on the smallest plane I have ever booked
Burbank to San Diego
Seaport Airlines/Wings of Alaska
Cessna single turboporp
9 seats

I used to fly once a month for several years on a 9 seater over rather remote country. It was a Britten-Norman Islander. I often was the only passenger on the plane and would sit in the co-pilot seat. The co-pilot seat had controls. I flew the route often enough that I was on a first name basis with the pilot and he would sometimes let me take the controls for a few minutes when the weather was stable.

Quote: Fleastiff

Just out of curiosity...
what would the effect on air route rights be if Norway did indeed adopt Iceland as its 20th county?

I think that proposal is still kind of non mainstream. Although some sort of economic union with another country seems inevitable. I think the biggest concern is to anchor to a strong currency, and there is still a strong ethnic identity with Norwegians, Norway helped finance the recovery of Iceland. Surprisingly as Norway's 20th county Iceland would only rank #5 in population.

IcelandAir is running a rather nice set of destinations considering they only have narrowbody 757.

Anchorage United States of America ANC PANC Ted Stevens Airport
Baltimore United States of America BWI KBWI Baltimore-Washington Airport
Boston United States of America BOS KBOS Logan International Airport
Chicago United States of America ORD KORD O'Hare Airport [resumes 16 March 2016]
Denver United States of America DEN KDEN Denver Airport
Minneapolis United States of America MSP KMSP Minneapolis-St Paul Airport
New York City United States of America JFK KJFK John F. Kennedy Airport
Newark United States of America EWR KEWR Liberty Airport
Orlando United States of America MCO KMCO Orlando Airport
Portland United States of America PDX KPDX Portland International Airport
San Francisco United States of America SFO KSFO San Francisco Airport
Seattle United States of America SEA KSEA Seattle–Tacoma Airport
Washington, D.C. United States of America IAD KIAD Dulles Airport

https://www.norwegian.com/us/
Norwegian, the upstart airline, is building it's fleet on Dreamliners.

Quote: Pacomartin

I think that proposal is still kind of non mainstream.

I agree, but even an official "trial balloon" is likely to be wafted aloft from a non-mainstream source.

Quote: kenarman

I used to fly once a month for several years on a 9 seater over rather remote country. It was a Britten-Norman Islander. I often was the only passenger on the plane and would sit in the co-pilot seat. The co-pilot seat had controls. I flew the route often enough that I was on a first name basis with the pilot and he would sometimes let me take the controls for a few minutes when the weather was stable.

such planes are built to higher stress standards than most airliners and always have elt transmitters, often safer than a larger airliner and usually operated by younger, recently-trained pilots.

Quote: Pacomartin

Dubai is now the world's busiest international airport overtaking London Heathrow in 2014.

Emirates has now converted the last of it's eight planes it flies from Dubai to London to an A380. So no matter what flight you take it will now be on an A380.

British Airways has taken the opposite tactic. It is flying it's nine A380's from London Heathrow to the following destinations with distance in statute miles:
3,671 Washington (IAD)
5,360 San Francisco (SFO)
5,630 Los Angeles (LAX)
5,440 Johannesburg (JNB)
5,990 Hong Kong (HKG)
6,760 Singapore (SIN)

What is interesting is that it is not flying one A380 on the LHR-JFK route, which is the busiest trans-Atlantic route and one of the busiest international routes in the world. They won't give up one flight a day for a bigger jet because frequency is prized by businessmen more than anything.

Airbus is now working on Emirate's order placed 8 June 2010 for 32 airframes. In addition Emirates has another order for 50 A380's placed on 23 December 2013 to save the program, and has offered to place an order for 200 neo-A380's to encourage Airbus to develop a next generation fuel efficient version of the A380.

If Airbus elects to not go through with the neo-A380 program, I wonder how Emirates will react? I would not be surprised if they cancel their order for 50 A380's and return to buying Boeing jets.

Quote: Pacomartin

Emirates has now converted the last of it's eight planes it flies from Dubai to London to an A380. So no matter what flight you take it will now be on an A380.

British Airways has taken the opposite tactic. It is flying it's nine A380's from London Heathrow to the following destinations with distance in statute miles:
3,671 Washington (IAD)
5,360 San Francisco (SFO)
5,630 Los Angeles (LAX)
5,440 Johannesburg (JNB)
5,990 Hong Kong (HKG)
6,760 Singapore (SIN)

IAD LHR I sell strictly UA
SFO LHR again, UA
LAX LHR, hmm, I really don't fly a lot of people in and out of LAX. The airports I book the most in California is easily SJC and SFO
JNB LHR I would consider BA but its not a route I book much
HKG LHR another route I don't book much.
SIN LHR another route I don't book much

Quote: Pacomartin

What is interesting is that it is not flying one A380 on the LHR-JFK route, which is the busiest trans-Atlantic route and one of the busiest international routes in the world. They won't give up one flight a day for a bigger jet because frequency is prized by businessmen more than anything.

Oh absolutely. Lots of time choices, that's what my guys want.
The request I get the most that I cant fill, is when they are in Europe, they cant come home after a days work. Got to stay another night then come home. India its no big deal, I take everybody home after work. BOM must be the busiest midnight airport around. If arriving, you also get in late. Hyatt Regency Mumbai Airport is probably the 1 international hotel in the world I book the most. Number 2, probably Hilton Beijing on 1 Dong Fang rd. Yup, booked it so many times got the address memorized.