Airbus 380

Quote: Nareed

Not only that, they allow 25 kg of luggage on domestic flights and 50 on international ones.

Even if they still weigh the bags, its faster to just load them than collect a few penalty dollars.

Quote: Nareed

But only after 12 pm... vodka, rum, tequila, some kind of white wine and perhaps two types of beer.
The coffee is drinkable, which for airline coach coffee it's high praise.

I don't object to the booze being only after noon. Aside from some laws that might be applicable I think courtesy and common sense should always apply. I would not offer beer to a guest before noon, though any visitor is certainly able to open the fridge and help himself if he wants to. If I go to a restaurant with someone who I know will want to order a drink, I usually at least try to order an appetizer before I order the booze. Many casinos have similar policies in their Bingo Rooms wherein the Early Birds are wooed with coffee, juice and pastries but "adult beverages" are not served until the 11:00am game. Few businessmen hopping an early flight want to land sloshed to the gills, no matter how bumpy the ride!

Quote: Fleastiff

Underselling? H'mm, would they actually turn away paying passengers and fly empty seats?

I don't believe it works like that.

Volaris says Volaris puts 179 seats on an A320, and has an 82% load factor which implies an average of 149 passengers per flight.
Volaris says Interjet puts 150 seats on an A320, and has an 72% load factor which implies an average of 108 passengers per flight.

So under the assumption that all aisle and window seats fill first,
Volaris has 30 out of 59 middle seats empty
Interjet has 42 out of 50 middle seats empty

I don't think they actually turn away paying passengers and don't oversell the flights. Most airlines oversell the flights, and then try to by passengers to give up their seats for a later flight for some inducements.

The other way is to keep dropping their price until the flight gets more full. One doesn't normally talk about supply and demand when discussing hotel rooms or transportation seats. It is supply and demand at a given price.

For example San Diego Airport flies about 18 million passengers per year. That is actually quite a lot considering there are only 3 million people who live in the county. But the standard estimate pushed by the airport authority is that the single runway can only support a maximum of 23 million customers. At that point, the authority will have to control takeoff and landing slots by a fee. The current charges are calculated by weight. So there is little difference between landing a Saab 32 seat turobprop or a Boeing 747 on a per seat basis. But if you charge by takeoff or landing then you favor larger airframes.

But once the airport reaches 23 million customers then you have to raise prices to keep demand in check. At this point the analysts give them the old razzle dazzle and come up with calculations like the San Diego County will lose $94 billion a year because of lost development opportunity (higher air prices will drive out corporate customers, etc.), These financial calculations are highly suspect.

Quote: Pacomartin

So under the assumption that all aisle and window seats fill first,

Possibly. Travelers flying alone want aisle or window as might be their preference, but travelers flying with business associates, spouses or spouse equivalents often want to sit together.

>>>>One doesn't normally talk about supply and demand when discussing hotel rooms or transportation seats.
>>>>It is supply and demand at a given price.
I don't know how true that is anymore. More and more travelers haggle over room prices and motels in the USA owned by immigrants don't seem to know any other pricing mechanism than haggling.

>>>>For example San Diego Airport flies about 18 million passengers per year.
>>>> But the estimate pushed by the airport is that the single runway can only support a maximum of 23 million customers.
>>>> At that point, the authority will have to control takeoff and landing slots by a fee.
>>>>The current charges are calculated by weight. So there is little difference between landing a Saab 32 seat turobprop or a >>>>Boeing 747 on a per seat basis. But if you charge by takeoff or landing then you favor larger airframes.

Runways handle airplanes not passengers. So an empty GiganticLiner uses pretty much the same resources as a full one. Oh, maybe it can make a slightly faster exit from the runway if its empty and that allows a slight slack for squeezing in a plane behind it. And a Cessna 172 is slow but only uses the first few hundred feet of the runway. The "traffic jam" is caused by the airlines that want to schedule all flights at easy to remember times, during a certain "prime time" created by downstream marketing or weather or hub and spoke concerns.

>>>>But once the airport reaches 23 million customers then you have to raise prices to keep demand in check.
>>>>At this point the analysts give them the old razzle dazzle and come up with calculations like the San Diego County
>>>>will lose $94 billion a year because of lost development opportunity (higher air prices will drive out corporate customers, etc.),
>>>>These financial calculations are highly suspect.
ALL advocacy documents are highly suspect.

23 million customers wear the wax off the floors just about as fast as 30 million customers do, so whats the "cost" of floor wax and paper towels in the airport restrooms got to do with runway use and runway repair costs? A controller with a full stack makes just the same money as a controller with a half empty rack. A fireman playing poker makes the same if the runway lands ten thousand passengers per day or if its closed for repairs. The paint in the parking lot lasts just as long at ten million than at thirty million.

Quote: Pacomartin

The other way is to keep dropping their price until the flight gets more full. One doesn't normally talk about supply and demand when discussing hotel rooms or transportation seats. It is supply and demand at a given price.

Pricing flights is an art. Say you open a flight to booking six months ahead of time. The first seats should be a low price, and a real low one for non-refundable tix. This is to cover your fixed costs. Then as you get close you need to jack the price up high, eat the white meat which is almost all marginal profit. Those people need to book and will pay. But the last day or two you need to drop the rice like a rock as the seats are perishable and anything above say $20 is profit, same as the hotel room at 11:00 PM.

Quote: Pacomartin

Interjet has 42 out of 50 middle seats empty

Much depends on the route. Flights to and from Monterrey and Carmen are usually packed. The Thursday flight to Vegas is rather full, but the Sunday one isn't. and the contrary on the return. That's the minor reason why I plan now my trips leaving on Sun and returning on Thur.

I was reading about this so called "Baby bus" or Airbus 318. This is another in a series that failed to read the market. It is a nominally 100 seat aircraft (Air France has 131 seats), and designed for high vertical ascent so that it is easy to maneuver in city airports. A total of only 79 were produced

A total of 19 were used for Government, Executive and private Jets where their dexterity in landing was appreciated. Some are in Colombia, some in Brazil, four in romania, and a bunch in Air France. Two are used as executive carriers by British Airways with only 32 seats to shuttle people from JFK to London City airport using the calling numbers of the Concorde, BAA1 and BAA2.

What is remarkable is that Frontier scrapped ten of these jets,at least one of which was less than 3 years old. It is amazing to me that jet engines and parts would be worth more than a complete nearly new airframe. There must be a reason they couldn't sell to rich individuals.

Quote: Nareed

Much depends on the route.

Well, i was giving you an average of 42 empty seats out of 150 (50 of which are middle seats). You expect wide variation over the average.

Still, most airlines would sell those seats one way or the other as there is almost no additional cost with filling them (maybe some fuel), and it is lost revenue.

Quote: AZDuffman

Pricing flights is an art. Say you open a flight to booking six months ahead of time. The first seats should be a low price, and a real low one for non-refundable tix. This is to cover your fixed costs. Then as you get close you need to jack the price up high, eat the white meat which is almost all marginal profit. Those people need to book and will pay. But the last day or two you need to drop the rice like a rock as the seats are perishable and anything above say $20 is profit, same as the hotel room at 11:00 PM.

A lot of airline pricing strategy to maximize profits is to set up rules to take advantage of business travelers.
There are 2 major groups of people that buy tickets.
Vacation travelers that look closely at prices. Low price and they take a vacation. High price and they stay home.
Business travelers that will spend whatever it takes to get from point a to b.
Therefor airlines set up rules so vacation travelers get low fares and business travelers pay high fares.
3 day minimum stay rule. Cant meet the rule then a high fare. Some business travelers go out and come back the next day. Vacation travelers never have a problem with this rule.
Travel to Europe, the Sunday or later return rule. Many business travelers depart Sunday or Mon to Europe and return Fri or sat. High fare. They cant meet the stay till the following Sunday rule. Vacation travelers to Europe can usually meet that rule.
Domestic Saturday nite stay rule. Business travelers don't meet that rule, they pay a lot, vacation travelers always spend Sat nite at their destination.
21 day advance purchase rule. Many business travelers cant plan ahead that far, vacation travelers always plan ahead.
There are also a bunch of other rules that business travelers cant meet but these are the ones off the top of my head.

Quote: terapined

There are 2 major groups of people that buy tickets.

It seems as if most USA airlines are catering to these 2 major groups. But these Middle East carriers are catering to a different two groups that are stratified by social class. You either get very crowded conditions on the lower deck with 400 of your friends, or incredibly elite conditions with just 90 of you on the upper deck. The price differential is so extreme that it goes way above and beyond the difference in prices of people with flexible schedules, and those that must make a meeting on time, and don't want to waste a few extra days in Europe to get a lower fare.

In first class they seem to consider their competition private jets (not other airlines). If they can stage conditions so that they rival private jets and still have some walking around room, then they win.

Quote: terapined

3 day minimum stay rule. Cant meet the rule then a high fare. Some business travelers go out and come back the next day. Vacation travelers never have a problem with this rule.
Travel to Europe, the Sunday or later return rule. Many business travelers depart Sunday or Mon to Europe and return Fri or sat. High fare. They cant meet the stay till the following Sunday rule. Vacation travelers to Europe can usually meet that rule.
Domestic Saturday nite stay rule. Business travelers don't meet that rule, they pay a lot, vacation travelers always spend Sat nite at their destination.
21 day advance purchase rule. Many business travelers cant plan ahead that far, vacation travelers always plan ahead.
There are also a bunch of other rules that business travelers cant meet but these are the ones off the top of my head.

Some of this is less true than it once was. Used to be a Saturday night stay was big, I have not heard that one in years. JBLU does it right, price it by segment no matter what. LUV not as bad, either. And they never went bankrupt. Wonder if there is a correlation?

Quote: AZDuffman

Wonder if there is a correlation?

One thing seems certain, the business of air travel has barely expanded since 2000 (especially compared to deregulation in 1978 to 2000). Either you can say demand is low, or airlines have preferred to keep prices high enough to increase profits without carrying more passengers.


Billions of passenger air miles
1960 31
1965 53
1970 108
1975 120
1980 191<------------
1985 276
1990 346
1991 338
1992 355
1993 362
1994 388
1995 404
1996 435
1997 451
1998 463
1999 488
2000 516<------------
2001 487
2002 484
2003 506
2004 558
2005 584
2006 588
2007 608 <------------
2008 583
2009 552
2010 565
2011 576
2012 581
2013
2014

This data set was incomplete, but the upsurge in the last year means they are probably back to 2007 levels.