Right and Wrong

This video is worth 11 minutes if you can spare it and explains the reality of morality and original sin much better than I ever could.

C.S. Lewis on Right and Wrong

Quote: FrGamble

This video is worth 11 minutes if you can spare it and explains the reality of morality and original sin much better than I ever could.

It's only a reality if you want it to be.
It's not a conclusion of the nature of
the natural world that you would arrive
at if left to your own devices. Most
societies never did conclude humans
were born in sin. Why would they, it's
obviously not true.

Evenbob, I think you should re-watch the video and reply with something of substance to support your claim.

You do know that every society or culture in history has strived to deal with the issue of why we don't do the things we know we should. Not one has ever just said there is no sin and do whatever you like, we wrestle with this strange human paradox that we are imperfect yet long for perfection and expect it in others.

Quote: FrGamble

we wrestle with this strange human paradox that we are imperfect yet long for perfection .

Perfection does not exist, it's an illusion. So
saying humans struggle with a paradox is
just not so. We are what we are, any sort
of introspection will come to that conclusion.
If somebody has a perfection complex, it's
a mental illness and is treated as such. Many
religious people exhibit signs of mental
illness, just not obvious enough to be treated
for it. Indeed, just being around others with
the same condition seems to be a treatment
of sorts.

I know you are not saying that wanting to better yourself is a mental illness. The fact is you don't just accept who you are with no introspection. You desire to be a better man/gambler/husband/father/(insert whatever you would like). To not want to be better IS a mental illness. It is true that perfectionism is a problem as well, but it is not because it is a bad desire. It is only a problem when we can't deal with the pain of inevitably falling short. If perfection didn't exist how can we even understand the concept? It does exist in God and it is our ultimate destiny, it is what we are made for, a echo that rings in our soul calling us forth in this life to be the person we were created to be. We are at the same time aware of our limitations, brokenness, and weakness (such is the plight of being human). We all need to reconcile this in some way in our lives. If not it leads to unhappiness and depression.
I continue to be amazed that more non-religious people don't suffer from mental illness - at least not obvious enough to be treated for it. I guess as you mentioned just being around others with the same condition seems to be a treatment of sorts.

I challenge you, Fr, to name the mental illness associated with "not wanting to be better". Please, name the condition.

Some people lack the skill of introspection and just live their lives without thinking about how they can be better.
Other people are satisfied at where they are in their life and have no desire to do better.

Neither of these are mental illnesses. One is a conscious choice, the other an unconcious one.

Part of the Christian faith and being a Christian is the everlasting desire to become more like God, and in particular the human form in the body of Jesus Christ. We are born with sin (according to the Bible) yet, as a Christian, should try to live the life that Jesus lived, without sin. Our out is that Jesus died for us, and that sinning is something we all do but our faith in Him alone gets us a ticket to heaven. Mind you some sects associates rewards in the kingdom of heaven to "acts", but whatever.

From my personal perspective, as my growth as a Christian, I do desire to become a "better" person. One's person's betterness however is another person's delusion. Plenty of non-religious people see Christians, especially the fundamentalists, as a cult, engaged in a war aginst the betterment of society. I respect their opinion, and all I expect is that you respect mine, and leave it open to debate.

It's a matter of perspective, but in my opinion, to call those without a desire to become better as "mental illness" speaks alot about the priest on the forum. I wouldn't want to have you as a Father with that opinion.

Quote: FrGamble

I continue to be amazed that more non-religious people don't suffer from mental illness - at least not obvious enough to be treated for it. I guess as you mentioned just being around others with the same condition seems to be a treatment of sorts.

Wow... that's some bold statement.

Concepts can occur without a physical manifestation, so the concept of perfection doesn't require there to be a real perfect 'thing'. We use concepts all the time, in writing, in logic and thought. These don't have to map to anything real (physical, spiritual). They are tools we use to express ideas, to work with mental models, to discuss and debate.

Plato had his cave, and his idea that a Platonic concept was a real thing. That the number 3 was more real than you or I (as I recall).

None of this is anything to do with mental illness. A paucity of belief in a creator is not a mental illness. It may be something you just don't understand, but many things we can't fathom in other people aren't illnesses. They are just other people's lives.

Quote: FrGamble

To not want to be better IS a mental illness.

Remind me when I have time that I have a lot to say about this [currently drowning in work]

Quote: FrGamble

I know you are not saying that wanting to better yourself is a mental illness.

You are correct. I'm saying that many Christians
get so carried away with their religion they turn
into zealots with all the characteristics of mental
illness. Having a best friend you can't see, hear,
or even verify is not a normal condition. Believing
you were born damned and must have an invisible
person 'save' you is an odd belief. And most of all,
having to convince others that the invisible guy
is around and can help you on a daily basis is almost
'lock em up' behavior.

When those people come to your door with pamphlets
and try and convince you to believe as they do, it
hits you in the face that these folks are not right in the head.

Quote: boymimbo

I challenge you, Fr, to name the mental illness associated with "not wanting to be better". Please, name the condition.

Some people lack the skill of introspection and just live their lives without thinking about how they can be better.
Other people are satisfied at where they are in their life and have no desire to do better.

Neither of these are mental illnesses. One is a conscious choice, the other an unconcious one.

Part of the Christian faith and being a Christian is the everlasting desire to become more like God, and in particular the human form in the body of Jesus Christ. We are born with sin (according to the Bible) yet, as a Christian, should try to live the life that Jesus lived, without sin. Our out is that Jesus died for us, and that sinning is something we all do but our faith in Him alone gets us a ticket to heaven. Mind you some sects associates rewards in the kingdom of heaven to "acts", but whatever.

From my personal perspective, as my growth as a Christian, I do desire to become a "better" person. One's person's betterness however is another person's delusion. Plenty of non-religious people see Christians, especially the fundamentalists, as a cult, engaged in a war aginst the betterment of society. I respect their opinion, and all I expect is that you respect mine, and leave it open to debate.

It's a matter of perspective, but in my opinion, to call those without a desire to become better as "mental illness" speaks alot about the priest on the forum. I wouldn't want to have you as a Father with that opinion.

I'm very grateful for some new voices on this thread and I admit that if you just read my post, without recognizing it is a direct response to Evenbob it can sound strange or too bold. For example I was using "mental illness" in the same general terms Evenbob was. I am very much moved to help those without a desire to become better because it is a sign for me that they don't recognize their goodness or sometimes feel that they don't deserve happiness or peace. This is not a mental illness per se, but a lack of self-esteem or a failure to know they are a precious child of God.