Right and Wrong

Quote: TheCesspit

Wow... that's some bold statement.

Concepts can occur without a physical manifestation, so the concept of perfection doesn't require there to be a real perfect 'thing'. We use concepts all the time, in writing, in logic and thought. These don't have to map to anything real (physical, spiritual). They are tools we use to express ideas, to work with mental models, to discuss and debate.

Plato had his cave, and his idea that a Platonic concept was a real thing. That the number 3 was more real than you or I (as I recall).

None of this is anything to do with mental illness. A paucity of belief in a creator is not a mental illness. It may be something you just don't understand, but many things we can't fathom in other people aren't illnesses. They are just other people's lives.

Again Cesspit I agree with you the boldness of my language was in imitation of the only other interlocutor on this thread for some time. I am really just quoting Evenbob but changing the perspective. As I've said many times before I don't understand how someone cannot believe in God. I think atheism is more a failure in logic or a philosophical choice rather than an illness.

Quote: FrGamble

but a lack of self-esteem or a failure to know they are a precious child of God.

If everyone is a 'precious' child of god,
he certainly is a poor father. How many
real children die every day in Africa from
disease. If there is a god, he seems helpless
and uncaring, certainly not a being that
comes with a high endorsement.

Another question we could ask ourselves is, "How are you doing as a brother to those children in Africa?" Part of their suffering results from the lack of concern from their fellow brothers and sisters (including you and me). Part of recognizing we are all children of God is seeing each other as family and trying to help each other. Our greed, exploitation, injustice and cruelty is devastating to many people around the world. Of course if you don't acknowledge the objective reality of right, wrong, or sin than you could say greed can be a virtue for some people and generosity a sin. Just make sure if you hold such a ludicrous position you share some of the blame with the God who gave you the freedom to do so.

Another question you might want to ask one of those African children is, "What do you think of your Heavenly Father?" Having spent some time as a missionary in Zimbabwae let me tell you that their faith is strong and they are some of the happiest people I have ever met. God is often the only one who cares and is certainly the only one that can help in the face of death. God is the ultimate bringer of justice and the giver of hope - nothing else can give that. You might say it is all made up wishful thinking (and you would be wrong), but what could a secular mentality offer those children instead?

Quote: FrGamble

Having spent some time as a missionary in Zimbabwae let me tell you that their faith is strong

Well good, then, I'm so relieved. That problem
is solved, god to the rescue. On to the next
world crisis..

Quote: FrGamble

To not want to be better IS a mental illness.

Disclaimers aside, it's not even a bad thing not to want to be better.

We have a limited time in life, therefore we must pick and choose among alternatives all the time. Even without any native talent, anyone can learn anything, within limits, and master it, if one so wishes. This can take a lot of effort and certainly a lot of time. It makes rational sense to use one's time in whatever manner is beneficial.

For example, I'm lousy playing blackjack. I can't tell just by looking how much a hand is worth, I don't know basic strategy, I can't keep a running count going. I could practice and get better at it, perhaps even become very good at it. But I've no desire to do so. I don't even like the game.

Cooking, on the other hand, I love to do. I do have some talent for it, though. In any case, I keep pushing my envelope in it, trying more complex recipes, different recipes, and different things all the time. I do this my way, however, as my time allows.

Quote:

If perfection didn't exist how can we even understand the concept?

What makes you think we understand it?

The way most people use it, either it means a superlative form of good, or an impossible, unattainable ideal. In the former meaning, it's a useful rhetorical figure. In the latter, it simply invites controversy and criticism. See, no matter how good someone or something is, they could always be better, perfect.

Nareed et al, what would you say if we clarified the statement to say something like, "To not want to be better in anything is a serious problem."?

Just like avoiding a regressive infinite leads us to God so does the progressive infinite. It makes sense for their to be an ultimate beginning, a first cause that has its existence intrinsically. It also makes sense for there to be a final cause that draws us ever closer to be better and more perfect for in its nature is perfection in its fullness.

Quote: FrGamble

Nareed et al, what would you say if we clarified the statement to say something like, "To not want to be better in anything is a serious problem."?

In extremely literate fashion, I'd tell you it depends how good you are at such things which are necessary for your life and such things you enjoy doing.

With more nuance, anything you do over and over confers you the benefit of experience whether you want it or not. If you decide to walk around the block once a day, after a while you'll perfect it even if you do not consciously try to do so.

But with all that aside, I would agree it signals some kind of problem. Yet one ought to be careful with defining the type of problem. It could be something psychological, but also something physical. One also ought to look at the causes.

Quote:

Just like avoiding a regressive infinite leads us to God so does the progressive infinite. It makes sense for their to be an ultimate beginning, a first cause that has its existence intrinsically. It also makes sense for there to be a final cause that draws us ever closer to be better and more perfect for in its nature is perfection in its fullness.

Even if I were to grant the first part of your paragraph (and of course I do not), the second part wouldn't necessarily follow.

I'll just leave this here:

Quote: FrGamble

To not want to be better IS a mental illness.

So, the Dalai Lama, who wishes not betterment but satori, is mentally ill? Hmm.

Now be careful. Because you will fall into the trap of saying, "Well, satori is a way of becoming better. It might not be better the way you or I define it, but it is striving to be better." And when you do that, I can then answer, "Oh. Okay. Each person can define "better". So Dennis Rader's search for perfection of his craft, meticulously carried out over decades, must be proof of his sanity."

"Better" is not an absolute.

Quote: Mosca

"Better" is not an absolute.

Of course not. But "best" is. :)

Sorry. I couldn't let that pass.