Right and Wrong

Evenbob, you couldn't possibly be more wrong!!! First of all let it sink in and own what you are saying here - you seem to be saying that cultures in the past were right and good in raping people? You can't possibly mean that, think about what that would mean throughout human history. If a culture decides that this or that is right then it is good and we cannot label their actions as bad or wrong. This is just straight up crazy.

What you are also conveniently forgetting is that these barbaric cultures DID know rape was wrong, but they justified it happening to others because those people were not people, because they were not us. They are different so they are less than us, they are the cause of our weakness, our mistakes, our flaws (or um... our sins) so they deserve to be killed or raped. Do you want proof of that? Let me ask you what would happen if someone in these ancient clans raped another member of the clan. Aha, this is bad because it happened to one of us! Of course they knew it was wrong, every human being knows raping someone is wrong, to commit such a heinous act you have to try and justify it be dehumanizing the person or making them into a scapegoat for your problems aka sins.

Quote: FrGamble

- you seem to be saying that cultures in the past were right and good in raping people? You can't possibly mean that,

And I didn't mean that. My point was, they didn't
feel it was evil or wrong in the slightest. In fact,
they felt it was their god given right. They enjoyed
it and felt no guilt about taking someones possessions
and putting them and their children into slavery.
They had no inborn guide from the universe telling
them good from evil because good and evil are
relative concepts.

If they had no inborn guide or felt that stealing and slavery was a good thing then can you explain to me why they would feel guilty if they took someone's property or children who was a member of the same culture or their friend? Can you also explain why this culture would punish such behavior?

Quote: FrGamble

can you explain to me why they would feel guilty if they took someone's property or children who was a member of the same culture or their friend?

Because you must have rules in your own
family and community or it falls apart.
And many of them didn't feel guilt, it
was fear of punishment that kept them
in line, just like today. Most men in
prison don't feel guilt today, they feel
sorry they were caught. Many feel perfectly
justified in what they did.

If stealing or slavery is good and you don't feel guilt about it then why should you feel guilt about allowing your community to fall apart? If they stole their friends children and didn't get caught would they feel good about it? In your prison example you guess (and you are absolutely wrong) that many prisoners feel perfectly justified and don't feel guilt - believe me that is not true. There are a few; some who are insane and think like you do that there is no right or wrong and some do feel justified - but I can guarantee you there is no one in prison bragging about abusing a child. Guilt often overwhelms them and it has nothing to do with getting caught. In fact many of those who are addicted to some sinful behaviors can look back at the day they were caught, not with sorrow, but as the beginning of their freedom.

Quote: FrGamble

If stealing or slavery is good and you don't feel guilt about it then why should you feel guilty..

This is getting really boring, padre. This is the stuff
college freshmen discuss in their dorm rooms about
their Origins of Ethics 101 class. I already did this
45 years ago, revisiting it is unproductive. You've chosen
your path, you just have to live with the fact that
there are other paths just as valid and truthful as
yours.

I'm fine letting this discussion go, believe me, and I am very comfortable with the fact their are other paths valid and as truthful as mine. However, the path you are on is NOT one of them. I think the reason I can't just move on is because not only is your "path" wrong, it is dangerous. We cannot understand the human person if we don't recognize the paradox we all find ourselves in. We have our innate goodness and extraordinary gifts so different from the world around us, yet we also have our real struggle with something I call sin, you might have another name for it. Not acknowledging this basic anthropological tenet has real consequences in our view of ourselves, others, and warps our understanding of ethics and morality to disastrous results.

Quote: FrGamble

yet we also have our real struggle with something I call sin,.

We make something up and then we
struggle with it, makes no sense does
it. Sin was invented to keep people in
line, to use guilt as a controller. Common
sense works just as well, but dumber
people don't have much of that. So the
smart ones invented sin.