Right and Wrong

Quote: Nareed

Ok. But if Ahura Mazda or one of the Titans is the creator, they're going to be ticked off at all you Christians for not keeping up offerings at the Fire Temples, or having never sacrificed as much as a goat to Ouranos or even Athena.

I'd like to submit this as evidence that the creator of all things is not Ahura Mazda or one of the Titans.

Quote: Nareed

We know for certain there is at least one technologically advanced species. If you doubt it, kindly step away from the computer (or tablet or phone) ;)

Again I like how we can take a little bit of evidence and logically extrapolate from it bigger conclusions such as the existence of other, perhaps more technologically advanced species. This is what intelligent people do: they take bits of evidence here and there and from these they form beliefs that no one piece of evidence proves by itself, but together they lead us to discover a higher or larger truth.

Maybe this is why the vast majority of the one technologically advanced species we know of believe in God.

Quote: FrGamble

I'd like to submit this as evidence that the creator of all things is not Ahura Mazda or one of the Titans.

Huh?
What evidence do you have.
If there is a creator of all things, what evidence is there that its not Ahura Mazda?
Who this Ahura Mazda is, I don't know, but hey, why not..
Is there evidence to the contrary?

Quote: FrGamble

Actually I believe it is of such fundamental importance that we all either implicitly or explicitly believe it. To understand our humanity and to think about what it means to be human is to at least obliquely reflect upon original sin. Why do I desire more in my life? Why do I get upset at myself when I do wrong or shame when I cannot even live up to my own standards? Why do we strive to help others and celebrate those who sacrifice for the common good? You might answer these questions without the same theological terms I use, but the concepts are the same. We know there is something more to us than meets the eye. We are not ultimately fulfilled with material things. We recognize an inherent weakness in ourselves (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually) and beat against it as if it is not truly us.

Indeed -you believe- this central axiom of your faith.

It is not self evident, or a fundamental requirement of my existence. I am a mere happy accident of the energy around me and before me. Any fundamental weakness IS truly US. It is a apart of us, and we can choose to work on it, with it or around it, or just ignore it. We can use it, abuse it or accept it. It's not a sin. it's the nature of self reflection to find parts of ourselves we don't like, on any of the five levels (you missed our energetic selves, along with the other four) you describe. It does not require a prime mover, or the sin of the apple in the garden of Eden.

Quote:

To wrestle with this human dilemma is indeed a requirement to exist and for reality to continue as we know it.

No, no it's not. There is no requirement to examine the human dilemma or human nature to continue to exist. The way you write it supposes that if I am absolved of my sin, I am no longer human or existant. That's very zen of you, but I prefer to think once the light in my eyes go out, so do I, and all I can do is try to leave behind the place to be enjoyed by whoever comes after me.

Oh, and my physical remains to make good fertilizer or food for worms.

Quote: terapined

Huh?
What evidence do you have.
If there is a creator of all things, what evidence is there that its not Ahura Mazda?
Who this Ahura Mazda is, I don't know, but hey, why not..
Is there evidence to the contrary?

The lack of being struck down by them.

The Veda, the ancient Hindu scripture, talks about
the Big Bang in a round about way. It says the universe
has come and gone more times than can be counted,
more times than all the grains of sand in all the deserts
of the world. And will continue to do so.

Quote: TheCesspit

Indeed -you believe- this central axiom of your faith.

It is not self evident, or a fundamental requirement of my existence. I am a mere happy accident of the energy around me and before me. Any fundamental weakness IS truly US. It is a apart of us, and we can choose to work on it, with it or around it, or just ignore it. We can use it, abuse it or accept it. It's not a sin. it's the nature of self reflection to find parts of ourselves we don't like, on any of the five levels (you missed our energetic selves, along with the other four) you describe. It does not require a prime mover, or the sin of the apple in the garden of Eden.



No, no it's not. There is no requirement to examine the human dilemma or human nature to continue to exist. The way you write it supposes that if I am absolved of my sin, I am no longer human or existant. That's very zen of you, but I prefer to think once the light in my eyes go out, so do I, and all I can do is try to leave behind the place to be enjoyed by whoever comes after me.

Oh, and my physical remains to make good fertilizer or food for worms.

Let me be so bold as to say not only what I believe, but what you don't believe. I don't think you really believe that you are a mere happy accident and as proof I point to the rest of your excellent post. Happy little accidents that are waiting to become fertilizer don't self reflect or even desire to leave behind anything for other bags of fertilizer to briefly enjoy after you. You must feel some inner pull or desire from outside your own understanding to want these things. You are right, of course, about all the varied choices we have when we are all inevitably confronted with our weaknesses, we have those choices as part of the nature of our humanity and we must decide one way or the other. Whether you like it or not we all have a requirement to deal with this problem as thinking conscious human beings.

Quote: Evenbob

The Veda, the ancient Hindu scripture, talks about
the Big Bang in a round about way. It says the universe
has come and gone more times than can be counted,
more times than all the grains of sand in all the deserts
of the world. And will continue to do so.

My college or high school science classes did not use the Veda as a textbook.

Of course not, it makes too much sense. My
wife went to a Christian college and took
comparative religion classes. She never
saw it there either. They don't like books
that actually make you think about your
religion.

If you can actually get your head around the
concept of universe forever and without end,
your whole world changes. All you see is
possibilities, instead of the restrictions religion
puts on you to control you.

Quote: FrGamble

Let me be so bold as to say not only what I believe, but what you don't believe. I don't think you really believe that you are a mere happy accident and as proof I point to the rest of your excellent post.

I am afraid, unlike the Pope, you are fallible, then.

Quote:

Happy little accidents that are waiting to become fertilizer don't self reflect or even desire to leave behind anything for other bags of fertilizer to briefly enjoy after you.

Why not? Why can't conciousness be an accident, and human life by the end result of a big bang? Just because it doesn't -feel- right to you isn't a good enough answer for this bag of fertilizer.

Quote:

You must feel some inner pull or desire from outside your own understanding to want these things. You are right, of course, about all the varied choices we have when we are all inevitably confronted with our weaknesses, we have those choices as part of the nature of our humanity and we must decide one way or the other. Whether you like it or not we all have a requirement to deal with this problem as thinking conscious human beings.

Of course there is an outside pull to my desires. It's the rest of the world exerting it's influence on me. And me on it, though it's like a fart in the wind... only those closest to me will smell it or hear it.