Right and Wrong

Quote: FrGamble

Some of these thought experiments are interesting, but they seem a little childish. If God created the universe than trying to understand the beginings of the universe is the same thing as trying to discover how God did it.

No, it isn't.

Suppose you ask me how to make a computer program, and I tell you "Bill Gates did it." If I also tell you "he wrote the code," are you any closer to understanding computer programming?

Quote: TheCesspit

There is order out of chaos. 'Random chance' I guess implies complete randomness and fuzz. That's not quite what I meant. Random effects can lead to order... there's some very beautiful mathematics on this from physics, and very beautiful results of this from Evolution and Geology too.

Random effects can lead to order like beautiful fractals, evolution, or geology - but only because there are rules and order is followed. One plus one is always equal to two and all the other unbreakable rules that come into play to make physics or biology so beautiful. If matter or the universe just popped into being without a creator and without purpose or order, what gives you the confidence that something won't pop out of existence. If the fine tuned rules of physics are just happenstance, who is to say the rules won't arbitrarily change tomorrow. Again the study of randomness only seems to make sense if there are overarching rules that the randomness cannot break. A random accidental universe makes no sense and stymies any true scientific thought.

Quote: FrGamble

A random accidental universe makes no sense .

It does if there is order in randomness, which
there obviously is. Mountains are created in
a random manner, do they look chaotic to
you? In fact, they look quite orderly. They
all work well with the other mountains
around them. As does the universe.

An upside down mountain? Now that would be random. As it is however, mountains form quite orderly and beautifully following the rules of geology and such. This is the case for the whole universe, it's randomness is governed by strict rules and order. It is not that order is found in randomness (that would be like trying to find a system for roulette), but rather it is randomness appears to be found in order.

Quote: FrGamble

All the evidence seems to point towards proving that indeed humanity is the most technologically advanced species in the galaxy. Unless you know something we don't know or you are counting the example of Evenbob. (just kidding Bob, totally a joke you know I luv ya!)

All the evidence used to point at the earth being at the center of the universe. Drake's Equation seems to point at the probability of there being more intelligent life out there. However, observationally we haven't found anything yet to indicate other intelligent life, but we are only 30-40 years into the search.

We might be uniquely special, or there may be millions of worlds out there developing or have developed life.

We just don't know.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually I believe it is of such fundamental importance that we all either implicitly or explicitly believe it. To understand our humanity and to think about what it means to be human is to at least obliquely reflect upon original sin. Why do I desire more in my life? Why do I get upset at myself when I do wrong or shame when I cannot even live up to my own standards? Why do we strive to help others and celebrate those who sacrifice for the common good? You might answer these questions without the same theological terms I use, but the concepts are the same. We know there is something more to us than meets the eye. We are not ultimately fulfilled with material things. We recognize an inherent weakness in ourselves (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually) and beat against it as if it is not truly us. To wrestle with this human dilemma is indeed a requirement to exist and for reality to continue as we know it.

Sigh.

I desire more in my life because my parents taught me to.
We learn rights and wrongs through family and society.
Some of us don't strive to help others. These are learned behaviors, but sociologically, it is good for groups to behave in certain ways to advance the cause of the group.
Some of us don't celebrate thoe who sacrifice for the common good. These are learned behaviors. See the previous sentence.
We don't know there is something more than meets the eye. That is left to faith.
We are not fulfilled with material things because we are born to procreate and therefore we are hardwired to love and have emotional needs fulfilled that materials cannot sometimes provide.
Not all of us view inherent weaknesses in ourselves and we can argue that this is driven by society as well. For example, girls are taught at a young age of what the definition of beauty is and they are continually beat with these images that they feel a false weakness based on inadequacies on the way they look. Men feel the same inadequacies because they don't earn as much as their peers. This is not necessarily God-riven.

None of what you say necessitates the existence of God.

Quote: FrGamble

On the other hand why can't an amazing thing like conciousness be a unique gift given for a purpose? Why do you feel right about being a bag of fertilizer and not feel right about being a wonderfully created human being?

Because consiciousness also is given to animals, none of which have concept of a deity named God, and certainly no inkling of Jesus or the holy spirit. We are unique, but I accept that we easily could have invented our deities to help explain the worlds around us and to give hope that our lives truly has more meaning than it actually does.

Fr, when I go to church on Sundays, I accept the faith that Jesus Christ is my Savior. There is no reason behind my faith. I have to accept the bible as truth and accept Jesus and the disciple's word as truth, particularly around the story of the resurrection. We know that Christ existed in history and he likely died on a cross. In short I am accepting a 2,000 year old text as truth, a text that has been wilfully manipulated and reworded through time, to fulfill the Christian belief system. I can understand and even appreciate how non-believers think that this is extremely stupid.

The rest of the mumbo jumbo is just crap that does not necessitate the existence of God. The creation of the Universe, while not well-understood, does not necessitate the existence of God. The beauty of the world around us does not prove that God exists. Our consciousness does not prove that God exists. It could all be random chance, but belief in God makes it alot more easy to understand.

But it all boils down to faith.

Quote: boymimbo

Sigh.

I desire more in my life because my parents taught me to.
We learn rights and wrongs through family and society.
Some of us don't strive to help others. These are learned behaviors, but sociologically, it is good for groups to behave in certain ways to advance the cause of the group.
Some of us don't celebrate thoe who sacrifice for the common good. These are learned behaviors. See the previous sentence.
We don't know there is something more than meets the eye. That is left to faith.
We are not fulfilled with material things because we are born to procreate and therefore we are hardwired to love and have emotional needs fulfilled that materials cannot sometimes provide.
Not all of us view inherent weaknesses in ourselves and we can argue that this is driven by society as well. For example, girls are taught at a young age of what the definition of beauty is and they are continually beat with these images that they feel a false weakness based on inadequacies on the way they look. Men feel the same inadequacies because they don't earn as much as their peers. This is not necessarily God-riven.

None of what you say necessitates the existence of God.

sigh.

We learn many things from our parents, family, and society. However, right and wrong go much deeper than what our parents or culture teach us. Simple experiment - if a society, culture, or a family taught someone that lying was good and that cheating was to be encouraged would they be right? Of course not, there are objective moral truths that transcend your upbringing and mine. We might have had bad teachers and lived in a corrupt society and therefore may be blinded by how wrong it is to treat people different because of the color of their skin, but you would have to agree that racism is wrong no matter what we subjectively feel or have been brought up to think. As strong as the laws of nature that order our universe, is as strong as the moral laws are i.e. killing an innocent person is wrong no matter what planet you live on.

This at least necessitates something greater than us which has established these natural and moral laws and at the same time gives us some insight into who or what this entity is.

Quote: boymimbo

Fr, when I go to church on Sundays, I accept the faith that Jesus Christ is my Savior. There is no reason behind my faith. I have to accept the bible as truth and accept Jesus and the disciple's word as truth, particularly around the story of the resurrection. We know that Christ existed in history and he likely died on a cross. In short I am accepting a 2,000 year old text as truth, a text that has been wilfully manipulated and reworded through time, to fulfill the Christian belief system. I can understand and even appreciate how non-believers think that this is extremely stupid.

The rest of the mumbo jumbo is just crap that does not necessitate the existence of God. The creation of the Universe, while not well-understood, does not necessitate the existence of God. The beauty of the world around us does not prove that God exists. Our consciousness does not prove that God exists. It could all be random chance, but belief in God makes it alot more easy to understand.

But it all boils down to faith.

Every once and a while I will be at a pro-Life March or protest or something and there is one or two crazy people who start shouting all types of strange and off putting things. It turns out that sometimes these people are often pro-choice folks who come to mess up the atmosphere and cause division. I feel a little like that with you my brother. I don't want to argue with you and I'm glad your faith in Jesus Christ is strong however I need to tell you the good news that you can be much more confident in your faith. God does not want you to be a brain dead zombie who just accepts things because some preacher says it or your family told you so. You obviously are a thinking man, use your brain to discover the solid foundation of reason, history, science, philosophy, and theology on which our belief in Jesus Christ rests.

It does all boil down to faith, but in the process of learning about the Bible and Jesus Christ many of your concerns will boil off and evaporate so that you are left with a solid, pure, and strong faith.