Emirates Granted "Fifth Freedom Rights" For Milan-New York Flights

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January 23rd, 2017 at 11:24:51 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
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Emirates is launching another fifth freedom flight to NYC area. This one will stop in Athens Greece on it's way to Newark Airport and begin in March. Unlike Milan, there are currently only seasonal nonstop flights from Athens to four cities in USA and Canada.

Air Canada operated by Air Canada Rouge Seasonal: Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
Delta Air Lines Seasonal: New York–JFK
United Airlines Seasonal: Newark

Athens is only 50 degrees Fahrenheit on average in January, so this flight will probably be a godsend to Greek tourism as American tourists looking for bargain rates will now have a nonstop flight.

To repeat, 5th freedom flights were guaranteed in Freedom of Skies agreement signed by all countries after WWII. But while USA airlines made primary use of such flights for most of this time, foreign airlines are finding more creative options in the last decade.
January 23rd, 2017 at 11:44:00 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
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I've wondered whether a US airline, say Delta, would dare to sell flights from NY to Dubai which then go on to India or Singapore. Or just from NY/LA to London/Paris and thence to Dubai.

Things would get interesting.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 24th, 2017 at 12:58:03 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7417
Quote: Nareed
I've wondered whether a US airline, say Delta, would dare to sell flights from NY to Dubai which then go on to India or Singapore.


I am sure that the Emirate of Dubai would be ecstatic if Delta asked for such a 5th freedom flight. The possible competition would be insignificant compared to having the precedent on the books. They would launch a full scale assault on flights from Europe to the Americas.

The traditional exploitation of 5th freedom flights by USA airlines was using Tokyo by Delta airlines. If you look at a list of 5th freedom flights, Delta and United flights are all in Asia using Tokyo and Guam. Emirates has them all around the world.

https://www.flypointyend.com/5th-freedom-flights/
January 24th, 2017 at 7:42:02 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9997
Quote: Pacomartin
I am sure that the Emirate of Dubai would be ecstatic if Delta asked for such a 5th freedom flight. The possible competition would be insignificant compared to having the precedent on the books. They would launch a full scale assault on flights from Europe to the Americas.


Maybe. On the other hand, as Emirates is not growing as much as it used to, what with low oil prices and all, maybe Delta or AA can usurp its hub for their oen purposes?

Yeah, I don't buy it either.

Quote:
If you look at a list of 5th freedom flights, Delta and United flights are all in Asia using Tokyo and Guam. Emirates has them all around the world.


Isn't Guam US territory? I thought it was.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 24th, 2017 at 3:39:00 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7417
Quote: Nareed
Isn't Guam US territory? I thought it was.


Yes it is, but if you fly from mainland USA to Tokyo or Seoul first, and then onto Guam, you are flying a fifth freedom flight. That way they can sell tickets to Japanese and Korean citizens flying to Guam.

January 24th, 2017 at 4:02:14 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9997
Quote: Pacomartin
Yes it is, but if you fly from mainland USA to Tokyo or Seoul first, and then onto Guam, you are flying a fifth freedom flight.


No, you're not. It would be like flying from, say, LAX to MEX to JFK to sell Mexican citizens tickets to NYC. As far as I know, the flight doesn't have to return to its original airport, just to its nation's land. I suppose you could also fly from LAX to Toronto to Alaska.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 25th, 2017 at 12:27:00 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7417
Quote: Nareed
No, you're not.


Actually you have convinced me that you are correct. I noticed that the Guam flights are on some lists of 5th freedom flights, but not on other lists.

Does not include Guam flights
http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php?/topic/25422-list-of-fifth-freedom-flights/

Includes Guam flights
https://www.flypointyend.com/5th-freedom-flights/

Back to politics!
Delta Airlines is still operating four very profitable 5th freedom flights since 1952.
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Manila (MNL)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Shanghai (PVG)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Singapore (SIN)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Taipei (TPE)

I think that Delta may give up on these routes as it is hypocritical to launch formal complaints against Emirates and retain them. But they are faced with a full scale onslaught aimed at Europe to JFK by Emirates.
January 25th, 2017 at 6:37:51 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9997
Quote: Pacomartin
Back to politics!


Dirty boy!


Quote:
Delta Airlines is still operating four very profitable 5th freedom flights since 1952.


Aviation sites call Narita Delta's Japan hub. enough said.

Quote:
I think that Delta may give up on these routes as it is hypocritical to launch formal complaints against Emirates and retain them. But they are faced with a full scale onslaught aimed at Europe to JFK by Emirates.


The Golden Rule of Politics: It's only wrong when the other side does it.

But commercial aviation is business, not politics, or should be. You also find the Golden Rule in business, just not that much. In this case, Delta can wax poetic about cultural differences between Asia and Europe.

Me, I favor full freedom in the air. If you can comply with local regulations, secure slots, pay the associated fees (landing, navigation, ATC, fuel, parking, etc.), you should be allowed to fly between any two points on the planet per segment. So if Delta wanted to run flights from MEX to MTY, great! And if Interjet wanted to fly Mexico-Houston-NYC-Toronto-London-Rome and back, all in an A321neo, that's just fine, too. Hell if Emirates wants to bring down on of their 777s and fly MEX-TLC, more power to them.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
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