Emirates Granted "Fifth Freedom Rights" For Milan-New York Flights

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January 23rd, 2017 at 11:24:51 AM permalink
Pacomartin
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Emirates is launching another fifth freedom flight to NYC area. This one will stop in Athens Greece on it's way to Newark Airport and begin in March. Unlike Milan, there are currently only seasonal nonstop flights from Athens to four cities in USA and Canada.

Air Canada operated by Air Canada Rouge Seasonal: Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
Delta Air Lines Seasonal: New York–JFK
United Airlines Seasonal: Newark

Athens is only 50 degrees Fahrenheit on average in January, so this flight will probably be a godsend to Greek tourism as American tourists looking for bargain rates will now have a nonstop flight.

To repeat, 5th freedom flights were guaranteed in Freedom of Skies agreement signed by all countries after WWII. But while USA airlines made primary use of such flights for most of this time, foreign airlines are finding more creative options in the last decade.
January 23rd, 2017 at 11:44:00 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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I've wondered whether a US airline, say Delta, would dare to sell flights from NY to Dubai which then go on to India or Singapore. Or just from NY/LA to London/Paris and thence to Dubai.

Things would get interesting.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
January 24th, 2017 at 12:58:03 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
I've wondered whether a US airline, say Delta, would dare to sell flights from NY to Dubai which then go on to India or Singapore.


I am sure that the Emirate of Dubai would be ecstatic if Delta asked for such a 5th freedom flight. The possible competition would be insignificant compared to having the precedent on the books. They would launch a full scale assault on flights from Europe to the Americas.

The traditional exploitation of 5th freedom flights by USA airlines was using Tokyo by Delta airlines. If you look at a list of 5th freedom flights, Delta and United flights are all in Asia using Tokyo and Guam. Emirates has them all around the world.

https://www.flypointyend.com/5th-freedom-flights/
January 24th, 2017 at 7:42:02 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
I am sure that the Emirate of Dubai would be ecstatic if Delta asked for such a 5th freedom flight. The possible competition would be insignificant compared to having the precedent on the books. They would launch a full scale assault on flights from Europe to the Americas.


Maybe. On the other hand, as Emirates is not growing as much as it used to, what with low oil prices and all, maybe Delta or AA can usurp its hub for their oen purposes?

Yeah, I don't buy it either.

Quote:
If you look at a list of 5th freedom flights, Delta and United flights are all in Asia using Tokyo and Guam. Emirates has them all around the world.


Isn't Guam US territory? I thought it was.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
January 24th, 2017 at 3:39:00 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
Isn't Guam US territory? I thought it was.


Yes it is, but if you fly from mainland USA to Tokyo or Seoul first, and then onto Guam, you are flying a fifth freedom flight. That way they can sell tickets to Japanese and Korean citizens flying to Guam.

January 24th, 2017 at 4:02:14 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
Yes it is, but if you fly from mainland USA to Tokyo or Seoul first, and then onto Guam, you are flying a fifth freedom flight.


No, you're not. It would be like flying from, say, LAX to MEX to JFK to sell Mexican citizens tickets to NYC. As far as I know, the flight doesn't have to return to its original airport, just to its nation's land. I suppose you could also fly from LAX to Toronto to Alaska.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
January 25th, 2017 at 12:27:00 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
No, you're not.


Actually you have convinced me that you are correct. I noticed that the Guam flights are on some lists of 5th freedom flights, but not on other lists.

Does not include Guam flights
http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php?/topic/25422-list-of-fifth-freedom-flights/

Includes Guam flights
https://www.flypointyend.com/5th-freedom-flights/

Back to politics!
Delta Airlines is still operating four very profitable 5th freedom flights since 1952.
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Manila (MNL)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Shanghai (PVG)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Singapore (SIN)
Tokyo Narita (NRT) ↔︎ Taipei (TPE)

I think that Delta may give up on these routes as it is hypocritical to launch formal complaints against Emirates and retain them. But they are faced with a full scale onslaught aimed at Europe to JFK by Emirates.
January 25th, 2017 at 6:37:51 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
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Quote: Pacomartin
Back to politics!


Dirty boy!


Quote:
Delta Airlines is still operating four very profitable 5th freedom flights since 1952.


Aviation sites call Narita Delta's Japan hub. enough said.

Quote:
I think that Delta may give up on these routes as it is hypocritical to launch formal complaints against Emirates and retain them. But they are faced with a full scale onslaught aimed at Europe to JFK by Emirates.


The Golden Rule of Politics: It's only wrong when the other side does it.

But commercial aviation is business, not politics, or should be. You also find the Golden Rule in business, just not that much. In this case, Delta can wax poetic about cultural differences between Asia and Europe.

Me, I favor full freedom in the air. If you can comply with local regulations, secure slots, pay the associated fees (landing, navigation, ATC, fuel, parking, etc.), you should be allowed to fly between any two points on the planet per segment. So if Delta wanted to run flights from MEX to MTY, great! And if Interjet wanted to fly Mexico-Houston-NYC-Toronto-London-Rome and back, all in an A321neo, that's just fine, too. Hell if Emirates wants to bring down on of their 777s and fly MEX-TLC, more power to them.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
March 14th, 2018 at 11:33:55 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 811
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Quote: Nareed
Me, I favor full freedom in the air. If you can comply with local regulations, secure slots, pay the associated fees (landing, navigation, ATC, fuel, parking, etc.), you should be allowed to fly between any two points on the planet per segment.


Well that is very unlikely to happen in your lifetime.

But some limited options from "international airports" like LAX should be entertained.

For instance right now Qantas flies from Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne to LAX. One of those planes continues on to JFK, but it takes on passengers from the other two cities. They can't sell tickets from LAX to JFK because that would be the mythical 9th freedom. But since the passengers are coming from three Australian cities, there are collectively enough to fly the final segment with reasonable load factors.

Interestingly enough if Qantas acquires a jet that can fly from Sydney to JFK nonstop, then the system will break down. There won't be enough traffic for Brisbane or Melbourne nonstop to JFK, and without Sydney there won't be enough traffic for the LAX to JFK segment.

One option would be to allow Qantas to sell some tickets for the LAX-JFK segment to keep load factors high enough to continue the flight without the Sydney passengers and just the Melbourne and Brisbane passengers.

Other options include codeshares, but the Department of Transportation seems to be objecting to Qantas American alliance efforts to secure anti-trust immunity. Qantas is even considering dropping the nonstop to DFW.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/02/qantas-to-drop-dfw-if-american-alliance-knocked-back-a-second-time/
March 14th, 2018 at 12:36:15 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
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Quote: Pacomartin
Well that is very unlikely to happen in your lifetime.


i don't think it even takes place in Europe with European airlines. That is, i don't think Ryanair flies, or can fly, between say Rome and Naples.

On the other hand, with consolidation at the European level, is it that much different if Iberia flies between Madrid and Barcelona than if BA did the same? it all goes into the IAG bucket anyway.

That probably won't happen elsewhere for a while. i don't see even Canada and a xenophobic US ever integrating as Europe has, not in the foreseeable future.

In the 90s, Aeromexico and Mexicana were joined in a single company. Domestic air fares were sky high due to lack of competition. A movement arose to allow foreign airlines to compete for domestic flights. regardless of the law, I doubt that Delta or America West would have been interested in flying MEX-MTY, just to provide price competition.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
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