Pope Francis

September 7th, 2018 at 11:49:01 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Zero evidence? From the beginning of His ministry no mention is ever given of a wife or family. He talks more than anything about the Kingdom of God is at hand through Him and teaches that there are some men who forgo marriage for the sake of the Kingdom. No writings talk about Him being married even those not approved by the Church. St. Paul uses the example of God's love for the world like Christ's love for His bride the Church. He implores husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the Church. You want me to not believe every writing about Jesus Christ and the unbroken tradition up to today because you claim it was odd for a rabbi, even though He was not a formal rabbi, to be unmarried. Do you see how silly your argument is?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 7th, 2018 at 11:55:42 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Zero evidence?


"Marriage and children were expected of a Jewish man, then and now. If he hadn’t been married, that would have caused consternation to his family, possible scandal in the community, and the New Testament certainly would have commented on it—if for no other reason than to explain and defend Jesus’ unusual behavior. But now we have a document that claims that he was indeed married and fathered children. Not only this, our document indicates that for some of his original followers, Jesus’ marriage was the most important aspect of their theology."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/the-ancient-manuscript-that-proves-jesus-married-mary-magdalene-and-had-children-a6982836.html
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
September 7th, 2018 at 11:59:15 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Evenbob
And you're not? There is zero
evidence Jesus was celibate.
In fact, I've read it would have
very odd for a rabbi, which
Jesus was, to be 30 and unmarried.
It was unheard of 2000 years ago.
According to the church, until a few weeks ago, there was little to no evidence the 300 priests are child molesters. And if they can spin it, in a few years it will all be forgotten. Which is easy to understand if it's looked at as a business, instead of some absolute rendition of an all powerful being.

It would be like Monsanto bringing up Agent Orange repeatedly.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
September 7th, 2018 at 12:34:07 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: petroglyph

t would be like Monsanto bringing up Agent Orange repeatedly.


Exactly. That's why the pope is saying,
shhh, lets all be quiet about this and
it will go away. Sorry, but with NY and
4 other states going after the Church
records in every diocese, this is going
to get much worse before it gets better.

'Pray' is the trigger word for me. When
the pope or anybody says they'll pray
about something, that's code for they're
not taking any real action at all.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
September 7th, 2018 at 7:05:53 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: petroglyph
According to the church, until a few weeks ago, there was little to no evidence the 300 priests are child molesters. And if they can spin it, in a few years it will all be forgotten.


Actually the horrible problem is that there was lots of evidence that 300 priests were child molesters and nobody did anything about it.

Instead of biased speculation lets look at what happened after Boston in 2002. The Church has put in place polices that that have made a huge difference. The graph of abusers and abuses looks like a bell curve. It begins to go up rapidly in the 60s and then peaks around 1985. There was something very wrong in our culture and in our Church during that time. In 2002 the rate falls back down to almost zero. In the last 10 years in all of PA there have been 2 priests accused of abuse and they were immediately removed and authorities notified.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 7th, 2018 at 7:30:04 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
"Marriage and children were expected of a Jewish man, then and now. If he hadn’t been married, that would have caused consternation to his family, possible scandal in the community, and the New Testament certainly would have commented on it—if for no other reason than to explain and defend Jesus’ unusual behavior. But now we have a document that claims that he was indeed married and fathered children. Not only this, our document indicates that for some of his original followers, Jesus’ marriage was the most important aspect of their theology."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/the-ancient-manuscript-that-proves-jesus-married-mary-magdalene-and-had-children-a6982836.html


Okay, first of all around Jesus' times there were many Jews and gnostic sects that held to celibacy. I can think of the Essenes for example. There are of course scenes in the Gospels where Jesus' family were concerned about Him and worried about Him and His unusual behavior. Sometimes I wonder if you have even read the Bible? Remember that Jesus completely gave Himself to His mission of bringing the Kingdom of God to us through Himself and His death and resurrection. He spoke about those who are celibate because they desire to serve the Kingdom of God, He is talking about Himself. This document you now brought up was written by sects who were obviously trying to promote their own strange version of things. You can't look at them as objective observers of history making a claim that Jesus was married, which no serious scholar holds. This is another of a long list of things that you want to be true Evenbob and that is all you need to believe them.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 7th, 2018 at 7:37:17 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: FrGamble
Actually the horrible problem is that there was lots of evidence that 300 priests were child molesters and nobody did anything about it.

Instead of biased speculation,,,
Thanks man, I needed that.


Quote:
lets look at what happened after Boston in 2002. The Church has put in place polices that that have made a huge difference. The graph of abusers and abuses looks like a bell curve. It begins to go up rapidly in the 60s and then peaks around 1985. There was something very wrong in our culture and in our Church during that time. In 2002 the rate falls back down to almost zero. In the last 10 years in all of PA there have been 2 priests accused of abuse and they were immediately removed and authorities notified.
You ready for a Vatican audit worldwide then?

The church can't save more than they destroy with >5% guilty generating this kind of exposure. The church treasury has got to be looking at the potential for billions in damages, billions.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
September 7th, 2018 at 8:00:59 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Okay, first of all around Jesus' times .


Do you see it? We CANNOT know if Jesus
was married or not, it's a mystery. The
first 30 years of his life are missing from
the NT on purpose. They don't want
us to know, it hurts the narrative they
chose. So you can't say he was celibate
like it's a fact.

Because there are books rejected from
the NT that say he was married, and
none that say he was celibate, I would
lean towards married.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
September 7th, 2018 at 9:13:57 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
As far as mysteries go this is not a big one. No Biblical scholar or historian claims that Jesus was married. The texts point clearly to the notion that He was not married and committed completely to His mission. There is never anywhere a mention of Jesus' wife or marriage besides a writing written long after the NT that clearly is biased. Your evidence seems to be a lack of evidence, but again that is the foundation of a lot of what you believe. I think I will lean towards celibate.

However, it strikes me that we have derailed a bit here. Jesus clearly teaches celibacy for the kingdom as does St. Paul. It is not something against God or against the Scriptures. It is not unhealthy.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 8th, 2018 at 12:42:37 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Jesus clearly teaches celibacy .


Clear as mud, that's why Protestants don't
do it or even talk about it. It's only 'clear'
to you and your Church because it fits
your agenda.

"The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy."

It's so 'clear' in the NT it only took
them 1000 years to make it official.
I just read that in EUR, in the centuries
before the decree, the majority of
priests were married. And celibacy
has more to do with priests leaving
their property to their families and
not the Church.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.